Help! How do you choose a breed?!

[MoiraRoseIsMyQueen]

We’re starting to think about getting a dog, but I’m totally bamboozled by choosing!

We’ve always had rescues in the past, but now with two young children this isn’t an option for us unfortunately. I’m really struggling to find a breed that might work for us. I think we need something that’s not too big - I’d love a retriever but I think they’d just knock my kids over (and I’m not sure I could cope with the hair!) I met a lovely working cocker the other day, but the others I’ve met have been utterly mad 😂

We’d also love a dog that’s quite affectionate/people-oriented - our lurcher was the best dog in the world but she was a bit aloof and I’m not sure that will work with the kids (my son is unbothered and I think he needs a dog that will love him). Other than that, I’m not a massive fan of small fluffy/toy breeds, but equally I wonder if we’re up to managing the full-on energy of a working/retriever type. Having said that, we’re an active family with a garden and living next to a massive field/woodlands, so we’d definitely be up for something with a bit of energy!

Any suggestions or recommendations? Much appreciated 🙏

This thread has got me thinking about an incident that happened the other day. I was at the vets picking up some medicine and I met a lovely spaniel x breed. They went to sit opposite a French bulldog. FB began to get stressed and agitated and reactive. She's a rescue, the owner said. So is she, said the owner of the spaniel x breed. Obviously I don't know what happened to the FB's background but I would have thought that her behaviour had less to do with her being a 'rescue' and more to do with her breed and the liklihood of her being a puppy farmed dog. As well as the owner being pretty useless too.

Mine is a 'rescue'. I keep her on a lead mostly due to her breed mix and prey drive and the fact doesn't always like dogs in her space. Don't bother redboxerdog, the owner of a quite lovely but totally untrained maltipoo would shout as she came charging up to us. We don't know what she has been through. No. We don't. But the problem here isn't her background but the fact that your dog has no bloody recall!

Another with a rescue. Pomeranian X or something similar thinks it's ok to let her dog run up to others barking its head off and to react to other dogs because... she's a rescue.

Now I've got that off my chest, I'm off for a walk. Not very nice here today so thankfully we won't see the idiots mentioned above.

I will say this for you @ACynicalDad , you do put up with quite a bashing here from us lot and you clearly love your dog very much. I'm also well suited to my dinosaur 😉

But I think we all have to bear in mind that nobody looking for a first family dog ever really knows what the red flags are, so it's important that we can have these discussions and warn of the possible downsides.

No, we don't, and it isn't. Because everyone has their own idea of what that would be.

I think it's what I hate most about the doodles; the marketing of them as the "ideal dog" because there's no such thing. On our recent walks, half the dogs we meet are usually either Labradoodle or cockerpoo, the rest is a mix of Labs, spaniels, assorted terriers. It's like 50% of dog people give no consideration to what suits their lifestyle and just chose the same dog as their friend or neighbour.

I never recommend my breed on these threads, ever. Because, in truth, I don't know anyone who would be suited to it. Yes, it's a niche breed, there's no doubt that more people would be suited to a Labrador than to my hairy giant, but still, I shudder at the idea of an urban dog to suit the modern lifestyle. To me, it sounds robotic, unimaginative. Put it on social media and everyone would want one. And I wish that people would look further into a breeds history, instinct, health, coat, size, temperament, rather than just choosing their pup on the basis that it looks cute and it would be nice for the kids to have a puppy.

Yes, we do. Humans always have selected and domesticated animals for their own needs.

Dogs are by far the best example. In the past they helped us hunt, guard, keep vermin under control and even pull carts and sledges. They were selected for their ability to assist us with these tasks. But in our modern world, we have limited need and understanding for these traits.

Developing a dog that is compatible with our modern suburban lifestyle wouldn't be that different from selecting and breeding sledge dogs. It's breeding for certain traits and purpose.

For what it’s worth I agree with you @CoubousAndTourmaIet - it would be marketed as a dog that ‘slots’ in to your lifestyle, when in reality, even with an ‘easier’ breed you have to adapt to the dog’s needs as well as them adapting to yours. Not to mention what the explosion in the ‘perfect surburban breed’ would mean in terms of cruelty during the breeding process and the proliferation of puppy farms.

So how do you breed a dog that wants to go to John Lewis or sit in a coffee shop? Because I'm not sure how fair that is on any dog.

What would you see as the purpose of a modern suburban dog?

To just look cute and live in a cage in someone's living room until they feel like taking it out for a wander round the block? Because from what I see lately, that's about the sum of it for some pet dogs.

And it's bullshit to say we have limited need for traits that dogs were developed for thousands of years ago. Gundogs are still widely used, so are sled dogs in some places and livestock guarding breeds like mine are more important now than they've ever been.

So how do you breed a dog that wants to go to John Lewis or sit in a coffee shop? Because I'm not sure how fair that is on any dog.

people seem to think Poms are the answer to that but every Pom I see is a snarly ball of anger. Probably fed up with being carried about everywhere. they’d be better off with a whippet but guess not as fashionable or portable. Maybe a coton de tuleur 😁

Neighbour has a cockerpoo, doesn’t walk it much and wonders why it’s bonkers.

😀He’s genuinely brilliant, he’ll go in a backpack whilst i cycle, sit under a chair in a café whilst I work, goes on buses, tubes, the Thames clipper, play with the kids, long walk/ short walk/no walk he’s happy. Well behaved for groomers. Never see a hair outside his baskets. A bit too enthusiastic with the first dog he meets each morning but will recall well once he’s had his moment and thinks that one day he’ll catch a squirrel... Genuinely an exceptional family dog and I would, and do recommend whenever appropriate.

Whilst I’m not pro how some of the breeders operate until the KC recognise the breed I suspect the motivations for breeding won’t change at scale. I do think the commercial breeding of them where they foster out bitches is very different to the Amish style puppy mills, but someone deliberately conflate the two models. I still wouldn’t buy from them, but it’s fundamentally different.

He does sound lovely @ACynicalDad , and he clearly suits your lifestyle well, which is what all of us should strive for when choosing a dog.
It's not the dogs that any of us have an issue with, but purely the way they are bred and marketed.

I don't know about Amish style puppy mills, but I think the Australian Labradoodle Association does need to make changes to what is considered ethical or acceptable in relation to number of litters for a single bitch, and the age at breeding. For me the biggest issue is the early neutering at 8-10 weeks though, because of the orthopaedic risks associated with that in the longer term. I'm surprised the BVA would not take issue with the vets carrying out this surgery, but I suppose that is a different debate altogether.

@CoubousAndTourmaIet
So how do you breed a dog that wants to go to John Lewis or sit in a coffee shop? Because I'm not sure how fair that is on any dog
Yes, what would be wrong with a dog that is naturally calm and content to go anywhere with their owners? Happy to be in busy noisy places without having to go through an extended training process?

What would you see as the purpose of a modern suburban dog?
Pure and simple a companion for both families and single people. Something that isn't too small, to big, too energetic or to delicate. A dog that can cope being home alone for more than 2-3 hours - because most dogs don't even if they don't have visible signs of distress. Many people like an non shedding dog, so give them that. They don't have the need for a bright dog or one that needs lots of training and stimulation.... oh yes and the old chestnut: being good with children from toddlers onwards.

To just look cute and live in a cage in someone's living room until they feel like taking it out for a wander round the block? Because from what I see lately, that's about the sum of it for some pet dogs. That's the issue isn't it? People get dogs that are unsuitable for their lifestyle. That's how dogs develop behaviour issues and end up in rescue. You can't stop people from buying a dog, but you could offer them something more suitable for the urban environment and modern lifestyles.

And it's bullshit to say we have limited need for traits that dogs were developed for thousands of years ago. Gundogs are still widely used, so are sled dogs in some places and livestock guarding breeds like mine are more important now than they've ever been Is it? How many pet Huskies in the UK do you know that also pull a sled? How many German Shepherd dogs do you know that are actually used for herding? Dachshunds to flush out badgers? Whippets & greyhounds to catch rabbits and hares?

Why do working & show lines exist for so many breeds? Why should there not be a dog purly for being a pet?

@Ylvamoon
To me it sounds selfish and it would, as has been the case with the designer crossbreeds, be very much to the detriment of native breeds currently at risk due to lack of popularity.

And as far as working dogs go: sadly, the UK doesn't get sufficient snow for huskies to be useful as working sled dogs in any capacity beyond it being it a sport, and that has always been the case here. German Shepherds have never been used for herding in the UK but are still used for this purpose elsewhere. The same goes for Dachshunds being used to hunt. Whippets and greyhounds are definitely still in use within the UK for catching rabbits and hares.

My only advice to the OP is to steer clear of working breeds unless you want to work the dog, or at the very least devote the time to finding a breed-appropriate outlet for what are often very strong genetic drives.

I did recommend the breed I own to someone the other day, but he had just watched her beat out a patch of very dense cover like an absolute pro, having had an eye on her for several shooting seasons. Generally, though, I don't: yes, they are beautiful and affectionate and pretty hardy, but they need a lot of activity, enough brain work to keep them from becoming bored and frustrated, and copious amounts of training. Some lines are less driven, and some dogs within very driven lines are bone idle, but in general, not a breed for the faint hearted.

I'd agree with PP that a chilled, social but not needy, small-to-middling, low shedding, low prey-drive, healthy breed fitted for urban and suburban life would be great for many families. A lot of breeds tick some of the boxes, some dogs within some breeds tick some or all of the boxes, but I've seen way too many nervy little dogs, and terriers who are never off-lead because their owners don't understand prey-drive, and dogs like my own being rehomed because the frustration got to them and they snapped at someone.

The criteria I would use is a dog that fits with your lifestyle, eg are an active family that likes going for long walks? Or more wanting a companion dog that obviously needs walking, but is happy with shorter walks?
We have had lurchers/greyhound/ whippets and they love 10/15 minutes of running around crazily and then sleeping for HOURS..🤣. Only warning is, that they can have high prey drives so can go deaf if they see " small furries" including cats...😒. Not all are like this, as I had one that adored cats ( introduced as a puppy), but would chase squirrels...🙄.
I have currently, two rescue pug crosses. Brilliant dogs, very clownish, and they have " snouts" so no breathing issues. Great with my grandkids. The only issue is they are " double coated" dogs so the moulting is constant. One has started already as weather has been so mild.
Obviously that's just my experience, so am not suggesting that's what you should do.

Isn't that the point I am trying to make? Designer breeds exist because of the luck of suitable dogs for urban lifestyles.

Native breeds decline because they have very little use outside their original purpose and people want something that they perceive as cute not functional.

And your response to all types of working dogs... well again, you have answered my questions. The UK has limited need for working dogs. And hunting with dogs is a blood sport that is against the Law. So wherever you see greyhounds and Whippets catching hares or rabbits that's illegal!
Huskies are designed to run for 8 hours + in freezing conditions day in day out. Not even sports like bikejoring as substitute/ hobby can meet the exercise needs. German Shepherd and Dachshunds are not used for their breed purposes- getting a bad reputation in the process.

We went for a working Labrador when ds was primary school age, but even within the breed there are different temperaments. Our “working” lab was so laid back I think he would have got the sack from any “work”. 🤣

He also preferred adults and basically blanked ds for the first few years, much to ds’s disappointment, until ds was taller (than me), then he was like a magnet, as soon as ds entered a room he would follow him around/sit under his legs/join him on the couch.

Given that I own a dog from working lines, you won't convince me.
I don't have an urban lifestyle and I'm not looking for cute, so I'll never be convinced of the need for another doodle. I believe that working dogs still have a place in society.

@Ylvamoon
And hunting with dogs is a blood sport that is against the Law. So wherever you see greyhounds and Whippets catching hares or rabbits that's illegal!
The law about using dogs to hunt is actually quite complicated.
Hare coursing is banned. Since it became illegal, it has become an absolute blight, with large bets being made and coursers trashing farmers' land without permission, using 4x4s and quad bikes to follow the dogs. It's probably the main reason why gates onto arable fields are kept locked, and you see huge tree trunks or large pieces of knackered farm machinery across so many field entries.
It is still legal to hunt rabbits with dogs, with the landowner's permission and for the purpose of pest control.

And TBH most modern dachshunds are just not physically agile enough to do the jobs the breed was developed to do. Breeding for appearance (the show ring) pretty much inevitably draws dogs away from the working type, in terms of both physical morphology and mental capacity/ enthusiasm. It's why show-line labs are a different ballgame from the working lines (on average; there is an overlap). The breeds I know best are the gun dogs. Show cockers would just not be suitable in the field as they have far too much coat and overlong ears and would just get tangled, even before you considered how much drive they have.

Some traits will persist (barking in dachshunds, for example - many breeds developed for underground work were bred to bark so that they can be located). Some will dim and fade, and some will eventually vanish completely.

But you and @Ylvamoon are both talking about the UK @EdithStourton . Dachshunds and other hounds are still widely used for hunting in continental Europe. It is not a British breed but you are generalising as if it were. The working traits may diminish within the UK gene pool with many breeds, but elsewhere it can be a different story.

Within some breeds or types there is little obvious distinction between work and show anyway. Livestock Guarding Dogs for example, although my own have been from partly European working bloodlines, the distinction is not so great between working type/show type. It isn't always true to say that inherited traits need to be diluted for the pet market or for the showring. A lot depends on the breeding, it is still possible in many breeds to have a dog that can be work/pet/show in one.

You don't. You just get a staffie. Best dogs ever!

These threads always turn into a pro/anti doodle argument rather than what the OP asked which what breed would suit her family.

Which is a miniature schnauzer obvs!

We have a fox red Goldador and he is the bestest boy anyone could wish for. Very smart, loyal, patient, good natured, playful and very, very loving. Training him was a doddle. He is just amazing. Golden Retrievers or Labradors are the best family dogs in my opinion and Goldadors are the very best of both worlds.

@DoggieNamechange the only miniature schnauzer I know is more intelligent than about 90% of humans I've met 😀

I don't think they turn into designer dog/mongrel arguments. I think it's more warning people about the risks they run - buying a dog is a hard enough mine-field as it is without resorting to needing to check multiple dog breeds to know what health tests to look for etc.

For example, I'm not sure many people would know just how common-place heart conditions in Golden Retrievers are becoming given testing for it is not mandatory (and let's be honest, most breeders don't even do the mandatory tests for things like PRA and dysplasia). Once you add that to the various heart issues Poodles are known for, it's really a bit of a (expensive, painful and cruel) disaster waiting to happen. Instead of testing for one heart issue, you potential need to test for three. How many potential buyers, particularly novice ones, do you think realise they should make sure those tests are done? I imagine not many...

I'm aware that dachshunds that work still exist (hence 'most'). I'm also aware that it's not a British breed - but yes, I was talking about the British show type, as I know nothing about show dachshunds anywhere else (except perhaps the US, where the breed has the same issues of overlong backs and ground-scraping chests). The working strain is around in the UK - if someone says they have a teckel, that is what they've got.

I didn't say that inherited traits 'need to be diluted'; I said that 'pretty much inevitably', that is what happens to working traits. The breed I own is slowly developing a work/show split - gone are the days of 'oh, that breed will always hunt!' To look at the dogs it wouldn't be immediately obvious, and plenty of dogs who are in work and win trials are also shown, sometimes successfully - because there are breeders and owners committed to keeping it a working breed. It's pretty much the same story across most of the breeds of the same broad type.

The thing is, if you don't work your dog, you have no real idea of how it will perform. If you are only breeding to show, how well the dog works is irrelevant. This is guaranteed, over several generations, to weaken working drive. That's how the work/show split seen in so many breeds develops. This is not necessarily a bad thing (provided that the show type stays physically and mentally solid), because plenty of people don't want, or can't handle, a working-line dog. As we see, all too often, on this board...

Sorry OP - massive derail.