Help with shortlist please!

[SingSangSung]

Getting closer to getting our first family dog. We've narrowed our list down to the non-shedding breeds below (mild allergies in the house) and are planning to visit breeders/rescues to test for reactions before making a final decision.

Would love to know thoughts on which breed might be best for first-timers, with two very keen (and sensible) young teens in the house (13 and 14 yo). DP and I mostly WFH, so someone will always be home. Thanks!

Somewhat in current order of preference:

• Poodle (miniature, toy or standard)
• Portuguese water dog
• Spanish water dog
• Lagotto Romagnolo
• Bichon Frise
• Yorkshire terrier
• Tibetan terrier
• Maltese

It you can stand the yapping - although all the dogs you've listed are barky IME - poodle every time (minature). They're robust, loyal, broadly healthy if you know what to look for, intelligent - but not too intelligent - and perfect for first time owners. There's quite a few posters lurking around on DogsHouse who have mini poodles who will be able to tell you more about them, but they are just lovely dogs from what I have seen.

Spanish Water Dogs, Lagottos & Portuguese Water Dogs are more likely to train you than allow themselves to be trained - they are all to 'worky' for the average first time owner.

Bichon's and Maltese can be lovely but they are so prone to skin issues that I (personally) wouldn't want one. Tibetan Terries are quite unhealthy for a terrier (prone to joint issues) from what I have been told. And Yorkies...tracheal collapse is awful and they aren't the most robust dogs.

Tibetan Terrier every time! They are fantastic dogs, cheeky clever and very loyal. They are a dog that's just happy to be with you. So if you want a buddy or companion, a Tibetan is for you. One point that was important to me, was a dog with low prey drive- the Tibetan fits that bill perfectly. But then I am biased, I've been sharing my home with them for the last 18 years.

@TheHungryHungryLandsharks - Tibetans are not terriers! I'm also unaware of any specific joint issues in the breed other than Hip dysplasia, which is comon in so many breeds. But that's why health testing, including hip scores has to be done prior breeding.

Miniature poodle. I have one, she’s amazing. I’ve had other breeds in the past but my poodle is far and away the easiest. Poodles are very smart and learn very quickly. Housetraining was a breeze. She settled at night very quickly. She was never chewy. I’ve had other breeds that chewed everything! Recall is 100%. She doesn’t bark much, just at the doorbell. She’s very loving. She’s great with other dogs and I’ve never heard her growl.

@Ylvamoon oops, easy mistake to make when reading at pace and not paying attention!!

They are quite well known for suffering with luxating patella which is a lifelong condition, from what I remember? Don't they also have quite bad skin issues and prone to PRA/Glaucoma/other eye issues?

Just to caveat there is nothing wrong with them as a dog!! But I think poodles are probably a more robust and healthy breed, which for a first time owner should really be a consideration - taking on a dog that is predisposed to lots of health issues (as Golden Retrievers are, for example) is a risk for a novice owner. It's more things to be thinking about when viewing puppies, which is always complicated enough as it is without adding 6+ health tests to look for.

@TheHungryHungryLandsharks - you really don't know the breed at all so please don't make false statements about their health. Mine do obedience & agility at competition level and sometimes a little bit of hoopers for rounding off the training. You could not do this with dogs that suffer from eye, skin or joint issues.

I looked up Tibetan Terriers. The PDSA say:

The potential health problems that Tibetan Terriers are prone to include:

• Luxating patellas – the kneecaps slipping temporarily out of place.
• Lens luxation – dislocation of the lens of the eye.
• Progressive retinal atrophy – gradual deterioration of the retina of the eye. Symptoms can start with night blindness and progress to total blindness.
• Distichiasis – a condition in which small eyelashes grow on the inner surface or the very edge of the eye, which can then rub on the surface of the eye, causing irritation.
• Cataracts – opacity of the lens of the eye – giving a ‘cloudy’ appearance.
• Hip dysplasia – hip joint laxity as a result of poor development, which will eventually lead to arthritis.

I mean, PP has literally just linked a very trusted website that lists all the various conditions.

You may not wish to admit it, but your breed is just as unhealthy as the vast majority of breeds. Not sure why you’d try and act like it’s without issues when Google is literally a click away…

@Hillyhillyholly - that's why you buy a puppy from reputable breeders that do the health tests.

They are not more or less prone to health issues than any other breed.

Mini Poodles are also prone to the conditions you mentioned...

https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/about-us/about-the-kennel-club/the-kennel-club-rules-regulations-and-codes/the-kennel-club-health-standard/

Yes, all breeds have their issues. However, poodles rate highly for good health. A quick google brings up miniature poodles rated in the top four or five of all pedigrees.

Just to add, if buying a puppy look for coefficient of inbreeding of 5% or less. The more inbred a dog is, the more likely it will be (on average) to suffer from allergies, various obscure genetic illnesses, etc.

And if you're a first time owner, unless you have very good support (a good trainer, knowledgeable family or friends) it's best to avoid the working lines of any breed. There is a steady parade of overwhelmed owners of working-line spaniels across this board, resorting to meds and rehoming and so forth.

Otherwise, look for any recommended health tests having been done, a breeder who keeps the puppies in the house and gets them used to domestic life, and a confident dam and happy puppies.

Mini poodles! We have 2 and they're the light of my life. So different the pair of them. So smart. Literally no smell and never moult. I have a boy and a girl and their personalities are very different but I couldn't love them more, and everyone who meets them is the same.

On the downside, they are very barky.

Isn’t it strange? My poodle hardly ever barks and she actively dislikes other dogs barking. She loves playing with other dogs but if they bark, she’s immediately put off.

It's funny how they're all different.
We have a breed notorious for its loud bark, but our current girl is almost silent. We've had several dogs of this breed before and they've all been big barkers but this one is so quiet that even the neighbours have commented on it.
Like your dog, she hates other dogs barking in her face.

Can I just add another to the list.... Havanese!
They are non-shedding, non-yappy and just the friendlies happiest dogs.

Miniature poodle gets the vote from me. I've looked after many poodles and always found them great dogs.

In terms of Spanish water dogs, I had one. I'm an experienced dog owner and she was the hardest dog I've ever owned (and the only dog I have ever had to rehome). I could have just been very unlucky but my advice would be to steer clear of Spanish water dogs - particularly as a first time owner.

Tibetean Terrier. Gentle and lovely. Very good with children and good natured.

Thank you, everyone. Really appreciate all the insight and great advice. I love the idea of a bigger dog but PWDs/SWDs sound quite strong-willed and as a first-timer, I want to be realistic about the learning curve and what we can handle.

It sounds like the miniature poodle is definitely in the lead, but I've also met really lovely Tibetan terriers (didn't know they're not true terriers), Yorkies and bouchons that warmed me up to those smaller breeds.

I think we're going to give some time to finding one through a rescue (possibly tricky to do with allergies in the mix) and if no matches come up in the next month or so, consider a puppy in the new year. Also gives me more time to read up on things and prepare!

Well, I registered with several rescues a couple of months ago and have had no responses, sadly. I think if we move forward to getting a dog, it will probably have to be a puppy.

Miniature poodle is in the lead right now, but DC were saying they'd love a bigger dog and we're fortunate to have space for it.

Any thoughts on standard vs mini poodles? Are they very different in terms of temperament, training, etc?

The Portie is still in the running as well, so I'm curious about comparisons between standard poodle vs PWD too.

I've also looked up local trainers, so whichever breed we go with, we plan to invest in some support to help with this initially.

Standards are HUGE and very lovely but being the size they are need careful training and don’t have the portability. The ones I have met have been great but rather boisterous. You’d get noticed with a standard! I’d go to a discover dogs event and meet all the breeders. I don’t know if they are allegy friendly but irish water spaniels and also curly coated retrievers are gorgeous.

What sort of rescues did you register with? IME breed specific ones (the best ones really), will want people who apply individually for a dog so they can compare them against the dogs specific needs.

Someone morecknowledgable than me will be able to advise on the difference between min and standard poodles but I'd personally still go for a minature poodle. It's very easy to find a well bred poodle given how (rightly) popular they are.

They're a healthier breed than PWD as well which makes them a good choice for a novice owner as you have less 'hoops' to jump through. You're going to be in for a very long wait to find a decently bred PWD - which is fine if you're happy to wait (I have people who have waited upwards of 2 years for a puppy from me), but not everyone is prepared to wait that long.

On size, I don't think standard poodles are that big (admittedly, I have four adult Golden Retrievers all of which are over 30KG so I am possibly being a bit naive). Standard Poodles around 30KG when at the upper end of the spectrum. But that's a lot of dog for a lot of people. I've seen grown men (including my DH) be tugged over by a 10kg Cocker Spaniel - dogs are surprisingly strong when they want to be.

A lot of 'trainers' aren't worth the time or money that they demand. Lots of trainers also only seem to know one method that they try and deploy, unsuccessfully, on every dog breed known to man - a cocker spaniel is never going to react the way to something that a Golden Retriever is, for example, despite both being gun-dogs. Why? Because their breed purpose is different and so they require different methods in their training. The best trainers are, in my opinion, those who either specialise in particular breeds or those which specialise in particular 'areas' i.e. resource guarding, reactivity, shadow chasing. Beware a trainer who thinks they can 'fix' every dog or solve every issue.

Out of all the breeds you've listed I would go for a poodle. From what I know standards tend to be less excitable and calmer than miniatures.

Well, I registered with several rescues a couple of months ago and have had no responses, sadly.

Just to echo what @TheHungryHungryLandsharks said. You will have to be a bit - lot - more proactive if you want to rehome a dog.

Some trainers will do pre-puppy visits to talk to you about what breed may be most suitable for your family and give you advice about setting up your home to be ready.

ETA trainers who are behaviourists generally

That sounds ridiculous! How can a stranger determine what breed would suit your lifestyle? I've never heard anything more absurd. I'd run a mile from that 😠

It's like those online quizzes that tell you what dogs to get 😂I never get any sort of Gundogs (once Goldies got 11% compatibility ffs). Once I got recommended a Chihuahua and another time a Pharaoh Hound...