Help with shortlist please!

[SingSangSung]

Getting closer to getting our first family dog. We've narrowed our list down to the non-shedding breeds below (mild allergies in the house) and are planning to visit breeders/rescues to test for reactions before making a final decision.

Would love to know thoughts on which breed might be best for first-timers, with two very keen (and sensible) young teens in the house (13 and 14 yo). DP and I mostly WFH, so someone will always be home. Thanks!

Somewhat in current order of preference:

• Poodle (miniature, toy or standard)
• Portuguese water dog
• Spanish water dog
• Lagotto Romagnolo
• Bichon Frise
• Yorkshire terrier
• Tibetan terrier
• Maltese

Well I can only really talk about the one I know who is an extremely well qualified and experienced behaviourist. She goes round to the house. Insists that all family members are there and then talks realistically about the time the family have available. The amount of exercise different breeds need. How much experience the family has with dogs etc etc. Not for everyone, but I guess some people find it more useful than others or indeed than <checks notes> asking random strangers on mumsnet.

No. It’s nothing like that

I doubt she's clued up on the rarer breeds though, so I don't see it as very much different from asking random strangers on mumsnet.

It sounds exactly like that.

Does anyone with Toy Poodle experience know how much exercise they can manage ? Would they suit a rural home with an hours walk daily?

We came very close to getting a poodle. We were looking up breeders who breed a middle size poodle called a Moyen. Not an officially recognised option here so there aren’t many (they’re registered as standard) but common in parts of Europe. That’s about the limit of my knowledge, but may give you something to look up.

Doesn't sound like a bad idea to me.

Tip for allergies if you're going for a puppy, when you visit a litter take a little towel or something when you visit and rub it thoroughly over the pup. Have a couple of days of exposure at home with it.

Yea, not entirely sure what’s so controversial about asking the opinion of a qualified professional. It’s guidance.

I think the point that @CoubousAndTourmaIet and I are making is that the average behaviourist does not have real knowledge of any dog breed in specific details. They might be able to point you in the direction of a roughly suitable breed, but without knowing that breed in detail any advice they give will be generic at best and clutching at straw at worst.

It's really not much different to those quizzes that ask for your household details, ownership experience, willingness to put up with fur etc.

And most behaviourists tend to know relatively little about dogs, as do most trainers. It's why so many of them use the same training methods to try and resolve issues - and that training never really works. The people who are best to talk to about what breed to get are people who have owned those breeds for decades - because they know the patterns of behaviour certain breeds exhibit that are, sadly, often glossed over by these behaviourists/hobby breeders/trainers.

Realistically, asking random strangers on MN probably is more helpful. I almost certainly know more about Golden Retrievers than most behaviourists and trainers, just as @CoubousAndTourmaIet knows more about PMDs and others know about beagles, or labs. Without having own the same dog breed multiple times, you cannot know that dog breed. Not truly. It's why so many people recommended going to Crufts.

I always laugh when people go on about how great Golden Retrievers are with children. With over 150 re-homed last year in my breed specific rescue for the region, 134 of them had bitten or 'gone for' a resident child. But, I am sure almost all behaviourists and trainers would say they are brilliant dogs to have with young children.

It's misguided and dangerous.
They are at best, 'jack of all trades, master of none'.

Is the OP considering a Golden Retriever?

Behaviourists need to know about people more than they need to have an in depth knowledge about different breeds of dogs. They tend to work with the person rather than the dog for it is often them that is the problem. Having an in depth knowledge of a breed of dog is great but it's how you deal with people that counts when you work as a behaviourist. The OP is open to different breeds of dogs so a behaviourist could give guidance and then she could ask breed experts when she has decided. But I don't think someone in the OP's position needs to go to a breed-specific rescue particularly. There are lots of dogs that might be suitable for the OP given her circumstance in general rehoming centres.

@BackToLurk Obviously not and there's no need to be sarcastic and quite rude when we've had constructive dialogue before on other threads. I gave that breed as an example.

Miniature poodle (the mid size as people often think the miniatures are the very tiny ones). They are excellent family pets. Mine was not barky. Also had a standard poodle cross - she was also not barky but much heavier to pick up if I needed to.

Having an in depth knowledge of a breed of dog is great but it's how you deal with people that counts when you work as a behaviourist.

Not trying to be difficult @redboxer321, but in that case, how on earth can a behaviourist possibly know which of the 200 dog breeds in the UK would be best suited to a family? Surely someone with breed specific experience is far better placed to consider and help a family advise whether a breed is suitable to them?

As I said, behaviourists all say that Goldens are great family dogs. Literally whenever I see an article or a piece written by a behaviourist they say 'Golden Retrievers are great family dogs' and yet none of them have ever actually owned one, or really know anything about them. So, how are they best placed to know if that breed fits into a family?

I wasn’t being sarcastic. You undoubtedly have years of experience and knowledge of Golden Retrievers, but that isn’t a breed the OP considering. However you still offered opinions/advice on the breeds she was considering. Yet any other professional, including one who could meet the OP and her family in her home, and talk with her at length about the breeds she’s considering is apparently worse than useless. This isn’t about a stranger randomly choosing a breed for her, this is about letting the OP know that she may be able to get more personalised advice. (Again not picking the dog for her) And that may include saying “I don’t know much about breed XX but I have worked with someone who’s had them for 20 years who could tell you more specifically”.

The OP says this is a first family dog, it’s unclear whether this is their first dog ever, but if it is I think long-term dog owners assume first timers will consider things they may not. Or may not in depth. For example, we’re seeing quite a few groomers near us talking about the rise in the number of ‘poo’ type crosses that they are having to shave because first time owners haven’t considered grooming requirements or how to handle a dog that doesn’t want to be groomed. Absolutely not saying that’s the case for the OP btw. It’s an example.

Isn't this basically how some rescues operate? Watching The Dog House, the people describe their lives and what type of dog they like and the rescue matches them with one they think will fit.
I think Dogs Triust now does the same. Although I know they aren't highly regarded, so perhaps not the best example to give.

Well a better way of establishing if a specific breed is suitable for a family, couple or individual is to talk to breeders or breed rescues. They usually know the good, the bad and the ugly outstanding traits of their breed.

A trainer / behaviouralist will still be biased towards their own preferred type of dog.

how on earth can a behaviourist possibly know which of the 200 dog breeds in the UK would be best suited to a family? Surely someone with breed specific experience is far better placed to consider and help a family advise whether a breed is suitable to them?

But the people have got to be suitable for the dog too. A behaviourist would look at the people to see what kind of dog would work for them. And for many people a number of breeds or x breeds would be suitable. Not all of course.
I think the breed enthusiasts on MN - and that's just a description not a criticism - can put too much emphasis on breed. Many people just want a dog, they might have a shortlist like the OP, but can adapt to the dog's requirements. Obviously within reason. The breed of dog is important but far from the only factor.

A trainer / behaviouralist will still be biased towards their own preferred type of dog.
Don't see any reason for this - although I would only ask a behaviourist not a trainer - unless they're short of work I guess and then they might suggest something unsuitable! But basically that's saying you can't you can't ask anybody anything because of people's preferences and biases.

If it’s a family dog, just get a greyhound. They need very little walking, don’t bark and are very placid. Also free.

Standard poodle every time

Edited to expand: yes big dogs, but not the biggest out there!

Highly intelligent & stubborn so you need to be hot on consistent training (applies to all poodles tbh)

Wonderful, wonderful family dogs - loving, great sense of humour, gentle, sensitive, fun loving.

Less inclined to hip issues than miniatures,utbut like many large chested dogs you must be mindful of bloat and never walk them/let them run or bounce too much for a couple of hours after eating.

Be prepared to walk them 2 hours a day when young, theyll need less when they hit their senior years, and give them adequate mental stimulation because if they're bored they can chew/bark (like all dogs), but you'll never regret a standard poodle.

I don't see the link between a behaviourist and the shaving of poo crosses @BackToLurk
@TheHungryHungryLandsharks and I have been warning about this on multiple threads here for months. Neither of us is a behaviourist or trainer but we each have a breed that is being crossed with a poodle, completely to their detriment. Crossing a long coated moulting breed like the Goldie or the Pyrenean with a curly coated poodle is creating dogs that are suffering hot spots, because the undercoat cannot naturally moult out from beneath a curly top coat. I'd be very surprised if the average behaviourist has much knowledge of this at all. Yet we do, because our breeds are being affected by these ill advised crosses.

Trainers and behaviourists are never without bias, as @Ylvamoon rightly says.
It's less that they would choose something unsuitable @redboxer321 but more the fact that they have very limited knowledge of any breed that isn't high in registrations or popularity, because that is, in the main, their bread and butter, so they won't ever be looking beyond that. As to them "looking at the people to see what kind of dog would work" - they can't. Unless you've lived with a specific breed you cannot possibly say whether it would suit X,Y or Z family lifestyle or environment. I would be very wary of people making these claims.

@redboxer321 - 99.99% of people chose a dog based on looks & popularity as in what they see when out and about. They do not chose dogs based on their own circumstances, knowledge and what they are able to offer the dog. That's why soo many end up with behaviour problems and in rescue.

As for the those infamous PooX, I have one. A firecracker is one way to describe her! The more accurate description is a failed pet. Was bought by someone as a family pet and turned out to be very high energy, very nervous and anxious. In other words an all round nightmare.
I've met others of her kind all different shapes and sizes calm and collected, snappy and barky or nutcases like mine. So if you go for a PooX you just don't know what you are getting. The thing with a pure breed dog from an experienced breeder is consistency in temperament, size and looks. Plus support if you run into serious problems with behaviours or get stuck with training.

The thing is though, I know a lot about Golden Retrievers - but equally that sadly means I know a lot about poodles due to the ongoing travesty of the breeding between the two breeds. And given how active I am in the KC world, I do also know a lot about other Gundog breeds (hence why I can give advice on the unsuitability of a PWD and also how I know I could never cope with a Cocker Spaniel as much as I would in theory quite like one).

There are people who have been fighting for years to get more tests done for specific breeds, or even in some cases asking that a breeding ban be put on breeds because of the traumatic lives those breeds live...the average behaviourist or trainer is not going to know that. But a good breeder, likely to be at Crufts, almost certainly will and so will people on here involved in that breed. And they'll do that for free.

I don't see how a behaviourist could provide personalised advice anymore than I could to be honest. All you really need to know is someone's dog ownership history, the life they live (WFH/actually active as opposed to 'oh I love long runs...to the sofa'), any children) and you can automatically veto about 80-90% of dogs if you are being responsible.

There are posters on here who have thought about particular breeds, been given fantastic advice based off the above three criteria, and are incredibly happy with their dog which was the suggested breed by multiple experienced owners - and the advice they got was free.