Stupid question re dog breeds

[Tweakie123]

Note I have no skin in this game, I have adopted a rescue dog but just from reading another thread its made my wonder what is the issue with cross breeding breeds? Eg cava poo and other cross breeds. My (very limited gcse) understanding of genetics is that widening of the gene pool would result in healthier dogs not dogs with more issues?

There is no hatred as far as I can see. Lots of people like specific breeds as you know what to expect from them.
For example I have always loved Boxers as I love their personality .
If You have a mongrel they are often the best dogs!
are you regretting your decision Op?

Like you I have no solid knowledge about this but from what I understand the traditional mutt / heinz 57 mix is generally healthier than a pure breed.
The problem with the very quick rise in popularity of poo crosses means the breading has been indiscriminate and closely related dogs breed with each other.

With pure breeds at least you can ( or should be able to) check their lineage and health issues of that breed.

Imo tho mutts are always best 🐶.

Also to answer your question is because those dogs were never meant to be bred. They often get all of the wrong ailments.
i think you should look into getting a dog further and look into a rescue. You don’t sound very knowledgeable.

It is really interesting that you bring that up. I had been wondering the same in respect to whippets, which I adore. They are a fairly new (it’s all relative) pedigree and were made from cross breeding. It has served them well. Knowing cavaliers and cockers, I would think that the issue is that those breeds are so inbred that any very good example of those would not be used to cross breed so it seems that the breeders that cross breeds use poor parents. I am myself looking at a new sighthound breed that is not even recognised by KC and wondering where to go from here. I know nothing about dog genetics and would love to hear from someone with knowledge who could explain.

I think the issues are that pedigrees are regulated so that breeders would need to have the relevant health tests and know about the lines they are breeding from. They should, theoretically at least, also be aiming to improve the breed and be selective about which dogs they breed from. Cross breeds aren't regulated so they can just be bred for fluffiness and cuteness, the parents aren't necessarily the best examples of their breed, and it's harder to predict which characteristics the puppies might inherit from their parents.

I have a crossbreed which was originally bred as a working dog but has become more popular in recent years. I'm in a couple of FB groups and you see a very big difference in attitude between breeders who know what they're doing (normally because their dogs are working dogs and they have done the research in how to get the characteristics they want/need), and those who just want to their bitch to have puppies because they think she's a nice dog and pretty.

Are you ok?

I completely agree with you but any idea why it worked for whippets at a time where no one would have regulated anything? If one can create a breed like a whippet, then perhaps it can be replicated… I don’t know.

I've got a Patterdale. They are a breed that was originally 'constructed', much as the 'poo' dogs currently are - the Patterdale was a mix of Whippet, Fell Terrier and Border Terrier (origin tales vary). As far as I am concerned there's also a fair bit of sheet metal and smouldering gunpowder in the mix too. They do tend to be sturdy little dogs who are fairly long lived and I attribute this to the fact that they were an engineered mongrel.

That and they are just too stubborn to give in.

Very funny! The engineered mongrel is what attracted me to whippets in the first place. Sturdy and healthy. So in theory, what was done whippets and patterdales could be done successfully again. No?

From a position of complete ignorance, I'd say because they were selectively bred for specific purposes, and things like size, speed, being good at hunting etc. were the desirable traits. The various poo crosses are also bred for specific purposes, but unfortunately those are often more to do with fluffiness, fashion and how much you can sell the puppies for, so it's possible that less care is taken over bloodlines and health?

@ACavalierDream I've got a bedlington x whippet. He's very nice.

It doesn't produce healthier dogs - there's actually an increasing number of vets saying the opposite. Many dog breeds, particularly those used in designer doodle breeding, have the same health issues: PRA, Heart Defects, Hip Dysplasia, Elbow Dysplasia.

So, what you end up with is the exact same health issues as if you had bred two pedigrees.

The big issue with designer doodle breeding is that the healthiest pedigrees of certain breeds that are popular in poodle crosses are bred by 'breed enthusiasts' are not being used to breed these designer doodles. These people breed their dogs, i.e. Cocker Spaniels or Golden Retrievers to make their own breed healthier. Therefore they are not letting their dogs be used to breed designer doodles - why would they? They have no 'skin' in the game. They are the sorts of breeders people should buy from - people who breed to breed the best (healthiest) examples possible.

I use the example of my boy a lot. He has the best hip scores I have ever seen in a Golden Retriever, he has generations of full health tests on both sides. I would never in a million years use him to breed Goldendoodles - I breed to make Golden Retrievers better, not to make money. I could make high five figures if I studded him. But I don't. Ditto with my girls. And I'm not alone in that.

The healthiest, best, studs and dams are not being bred with poodles (and neither are the best poodles being used) because not only do these owners have no interest in 'Goldendoodle' or 'whatever-oodle' breeding, but also breeding your well-bred pedigree with (usually) puppy farmers or those more invested in money than the breed devalues your own dog - which means other pedigree breeders won't use you.

If you look at the average dog being used to breed designer doodles, they are either not fully health tested (in which case no one should be breeding them anyway) or they are but their scores are awful. Some even say they are fully health tested...but they are not. I just checked Pets4Homes - Sevenoaks - Cockapoo. First litter that came up said full health tested. But the dogs aren't...as they have no elbow or hip scoring - which is a serious issue in both poodles and cockers.

Many dogs used for breeding designer mongrels are also over-bred (3-4 litters per bitch, way above acceptable standards) and then dumped or sold when they can't be bred from anymore. Which means the people buying these puppies are not only buying unhealthy dogs, they are contributing to animal abuse.

They are also increasingly crossing Poodles with (quite frankly) completely insane mixes - like Lifestock Guardian Dog Breeds. LGDs are lovely dogs, but they require a particular sort of (experienced) owner. Crossing a LGD with a Poodle does not remove generations of 'guardian' type behaviour (at a very base level) no matter what these breeders say. There's a-lot of myths around the personalities of these designer doodles - often, the reality is a much more unpredictable dog (in part because the sorts of people who breed them do not raise them well in the first 8 weeks - and if the first 8 weeks of a dogs life are bad, chances of it ever being a well-rounded member of society are pretty slim).

So, to answer your question: not healthier as the best dam/sire's aren't being used, often not fully health tested, and very often buyers support animal abuse.

I need to talk to you! I was about to create a post in my search for my next sighthound. Ok I will create the post and you can tell us all about your dog.

Also, back in the day when the Patterdale and Whippet breeds were being created, any dogs which weren't top notch healthy just didn't survive (we are still back in the day of 'runts' being drowned or otherwise disposed of. There WERE no dogs with dodgy hips or various conditions being bred, because they wouldn't work as needed and would be got rid of or used as pets, not bred.

So the dogs that were breeding dogs were only the healthiest, by default.

So in theory, do you think it would be possible to create a new breed and be successful like whippets and patterdales? I am looking at silken wind hounds and wonder if it is possible. If breeders steer away from high demand pedigrees and work with the best examples of other breeds less in demand to engineer a mongrel, like a whippet, do you think that is possible today?

That makes sense and is what I am thinking. It figures.

Entirely possible.

But IMO it would take generations over a significant period of time and you'd need to be fully health testing the whole way and only using the most even tempered dogs to be sure you know what you are getting - and that's where the designer doodle has fallen flat. It grew too popular to quickly and it all went very wrong with puppy farmers, over-breeding and poor breeding.

The ultimate problem with 'designer' doodles is they have unfortunately, typically (not always) attracted a particular type of buyer who falls for the myths that are spouted ('healthier' 'more robust' 'hypoallergenic' 'even temperament' 'less energetic'). They focus on that, over the actual health and temperament of the dog(s) involved in the breeding.

People always forget this but: just because a dog can be bred from, doesn't mean it should be bred from.

One of the reasons I don't use my boy as a stud is because although he is flawless, him being used as a stud adds literally nothing to the breed that does not already exist. He's brilliant, and I love him, but it wouldn't be in the best interest of his breed to breed him.

I think that some of the problem is that people are expecting a cute little teddy bear of a dog, and forgetting that spaniels etc can be a lively breed.

Also, a lot of unscrupulous breeders have emerged that are overbreeding to cater for this growing market.

Funnily enough its a whippet that we have rescued. He is a cross apparantly although he seems to be mainly whippet. They are such lovely dogs!

Excellent post by @LandSharksAnonymous , but I will add one thing with regard to the Livestock Protection Dogs. Not only will crossing a LGD breed not dilute the guarding instinct as is being claimed by the oodle cross breeders, but it can potentially create a highly dangerous dog.

The giant guardian dogs have been specifically bred for centuries (some of the breeds in fact are over 4,000 years old) to have a low, almost non existent prey drive. This is what makes them safe around the livestock that they guard and is why most of the larger guardians do not herd - they largely lack the gene to chase. By crossing them with a dog that has a high prey drive (such as a poodle) you can end up with a giant, highly territorial guard dog that will also chase.

LGD breeds have traditionally not been considered as dangerous or aggressive in the correct hands, but these crosses being sold as cute teddy bear pups could be potentially lethal, because this not a stable mix. It is also then no longer a working dog of any sort. My LGD bitch pup was 50kg at a year old. Some - particularly the Asian breeds - are considerably larger than this. Crossing these hugely powerful breeds with a poodle or other dog and selling it as a family pet makes no sense. There is nothing to be gained from doing this.

Some breeds need to remain pure in order to do the work they were bred to do, whether that be retrieving game, herding sheep, guarding livestock. We still need dogs that can work.

So while some crosses can make a cute pet, by choosing a cross over a pure breed with a function, we are putting ancient working breeds at risk. And with some we are also potentially risking our own safety. It isn't about snobbery, some of it is just common sense.

Excellent taste! Whippets are wonderful dogs. We lost ours a few months ago and have a hole in our lives. Enjoy yours, they are such wonderful dogs.

Oh no, so sorry to hear that. He really is such a joy, we feel very lucky to have found him.

You're not wrong, dog breeds are basically inbred family lines, to get the same traits and look, many years ago there was more crossing involved in breeding.

People think dog breeds are normal because it's what we're used to, and they think it's wrong to cross them, but dogs didn't start out as different breeds, we forced it on them.

There will have been differences in dogs from different places in the world happening naturally over time, but what we have today is just excessive and in some cases unethical.

Edited to say I am not advocating crossing every breed, and definitely not by amateur breeders, but just pointing out that pure isn't always better. I would always rehome a rescue first.

Quite terrifying really when you spell it out like that

Potentially. These breeds in their pure state are generally very predictable. I've lived with them in my home for almost 50 years, but I would hesitate to take on some of the crossbreed puppies that I've seen on Pets4Homes. This is what worries me most about the trend for designer crossbreeds - the lack of knowledge by some of the "breeders".