Stupid question re dog breeds

[Tweakie123]

Note I have no skin in this game, I have adopted a rescue dog but just from reading another thread its made my wonder what is the issue with cross breeding breeds? Eg cava poo and other cross breeds. My (very limited gcse) understanding of genetics is that widening of the gene pool would result in healthier dogs not dogs with more issues?

@CoubousAndTourmaIet knew I could count on you to give a more detailed breakdown of why it's such a bad idea!

@Tweakie123 there is a 'breeder' in the South-East England (literally about an hour from me), who has been recommended on these 'doodle' threads before. They breed cockapoos, cavapoos, labradoodles, Pyreanean Mountain dog x Poodle crosses, and Goldendoodles.

That sort of breeder is 100% the sort of breeder no one should ever be buying from, from obvious reasons. When you buy a dog (particularly from any sort of 'working lines' - I'd be less fussed about dogs designed to be lap dogs - so Gundogs, LGDs, Pastoral, Working, Terrier etc) you really want a breeder who knows what they are doing because that way you can be sure you end up with a dog who is appropriate for you.

I am constantly turning people down - not because I don't think they'd make great owners, but because they wouldn't make a great owner for one of my dogs. Even within breeds...temperament, drive, strength, size, form etc, all vary massively and then when you throw in health issues etc, it's a mine-field. Adding a new breed, with a new set of 'traits' you have to try and manage, needs to be so carefully done and so many people just shove two dogs together and hope for the best. When it does end well, it's sheer luck - not skill and not ability.

It also goes far beyond doodles @LandSharksAnonymous People are crossing breeds like Cane Corso and Caucasian, mixing them with GSD and Rotties. Some of these are potentially the next macho man's dog. This is what terrifies me, as the long time owner of a guarding breed that has (up to now) a good reputation. These new crossbreeds are being created by people who do not understand the heritage or instincts of these breeds, and it could have serious long term implications for responsible people like us, who have dedicated their lives to these dogs in the pure state.

What is your view on cross breeds like bedlington X whippets or even rare the silken windhound? I get @LandSharksAnonymous ‘s point that it would take would generations to get it right but for some niche cross breeds is there not an argument that it creates dogs that offer an alternative to breeds at risk of inbreeding (whippets due to recent surge in popularity)?

This is going to be long. Sorry.

Both pedigree dogs and crosses can have issues.

With ANY puppy, you need to ask if the breeder is testing for widespread issues like hip dysplasia. If not, why not?
You also need to know why the litter was being bred. To produce working dogs? From dogs of good temperament and sound conformation who will mostly be pets? To produce a show prospect? Or just two dogs being glued together for the £££?
What are the parent dogs like? Do you have a pair of nice chilled-out show-line labradors? Or a neurotic Malinois who takes that breed's inbred urge to bite to extremes being crossed with a physical shambles of a GSD? Or two hyper cocker spaniels?
How are the puppies being brought up? Lots of exposure to new things? Being handled by several different people or shut in a run in a pokey barn with their dam?

Pedigree dogs can have issues due to a narrow gene pool. Think of it like this. Dog A is an excellent example of his breed and is used multiple times to produce puppies. He produces some excellent progeny, several of whom are, like him, studded out multiple times. Within a couple of decades, there are very few lines of the breed that don't carry his genetics.

There's a problem, though. Dog A carried a nasty recessive gene. No a problem if the dog only gets one copy, horrible illness if it gets two. Hence issues like Collie Eye Anomaly. Vizsla polymyopathy is another one that is almost certainly caused by a recessive gene, but as yet there is no test for it. As a breed, they went through a very tight bottleneck post World War II, so it might be due to that rather than the overuse of a particular sire and his progeny.

Sometimes this narrowing of the gene pool happens much more slowly and less obviously, but it's why some genetic tests are recommended for some breeds and not others.

And the other issue with some pedigrees is their morphology - long backs prone to disc issues, flat faces so the dog can't breathe properly etc.

Cross-bred puppies, however will still need to come from tested stock if both parent breeds carry the same recessive issue (for example, the same form of PRA). And the chances are much much higher that they are being churned out purely for the £££, and will come from a puppy farm which is NOT the best start in life.

It's lot harder to find a well-bred cross than it is a well-bred pedigree. And some things will come down to your personal preference. Are you okay with the sire not having had his hips tested but instead being in work aged 10? Would you be happy with a random farm-bred non-KC Jack Russell, brought up in the farm kitchen and around the yards, who is confident with all sorts of people (noisy men in hi-viz, squealing grandchildren) and loud machinery and lowing cattle, because at least one of them will be staying put to help its mother keep the rats down? Or would you want a Westie from fully health-tested stock nurtured in the breeder'
s calm suburban house and garden? Me, I'd go for the JRT, because as a type they're as tough as old boots and I like a drivey dog, and Westies tend to bark a lot and have skin issues, but you might see things differently.

There are no guarantees. All you can do is to shorten the odds for you and the puppy to what you consider acceptable.

And above all, consider what it is you're getting. A Malinois is not a German pointer is not a pug is not a border terrier. Working lines and show lines are very different things.

You see all sorts of questionable crosses on some rescue pages. Cane Corsos can be very serious dogs, fine in the right hands but not in others.

People breeding crosses with a working purpose in mind (bull lurchers for fox control, for example) are one thing. People who don't understand dogs producing muscle dogs with a tendency to bite first and ask questions later are something else altogether.

I have no knowledge of the situation in Whippets. I would have expected popularity to mean a wider gene pool rather than a narrower one. Unless you are meaning that the breed is now being puppy farmed because demand outstrips supply...?
There is, in theory, nothing wrong with outcrossing in certain breeds that are low in numbers and thus have a limited gene pool. This has happened in many breeds over time, but the key is breeding similar types with equal drive and similar instincts, bred for the same purpose.
I have seen you mention the Silken Windhound before. It is bred from Borzoi and Deerhound Lurcher, which again share a common ancestry, both being sighthounds.

But I think perhaps you slightly missed the point that I was making, which is that there are ethical questions raised by the endless poodle, cavalier, labrador crosses that are being created, because some of them are seemingly random. It is not stopping at breeding gundog to gundog, hound to hound or toy to toy which might make sense. They are crossing gundogs with sheepdogs or guarding breeds. There is nothing to gain from doing this and some of these crosses are potentially unstable and dangerous for reasons that I outlined in my earlier post.

Thank you for your reply. I understood your point, which was very instructive. I am only fleetingly interested in designer dogs or labradors out of curiosity only so my reply to you was selfishly focused on what interests me - sighthounds, as part of my research in understanding them better looking for my new puppy. You seem very knowledgeable about a variety of dogs.

When I got my whippet 15 years ago, there were less of them around but enough that there were not a rare breed. They seemed to me good, sturdy and healthy. Whippet pups were around £500 or a little more. This time around, there seems to be a lot more on offer for triple the price. Some sleuthing showed up that some of the show breeders have an inbreeding coefficient of 20%. I don't know if there a puppy farmers of whippets but there are quite a few up for sale. They seem like they are everywhere in London. I got discouraged and thought I would look around at what else the sighthound group has to offer. Then the silken caught my eye. But here we are in uncharted territory. I don't know to what extent this is a good thing or a bad thing, hence asking around as they are a cross breed.

In general, I find it very interesting what makes a breed a pedigree and how it got there. Again, I find the whippet history fascinating. I just wondered if it could be replicated.

I do think the Silken Windhound looks interesting, though I imagine it is not easy to find outside of the US. As to whether it ticks all your boxes, only you can say. I think it was you that started a thread about the Borzoi recently; I almost replied because it is a breed I love. I also know only too well the pitfalls of having such a large dog that can rarely be allowed to run off lead in public, for its own safety.

I have to admit that I'm really only clued up about Livestock Protection Dogs though, I am slightly obsessive about them.
We paid £800 for our previous Pyrenean pup in 2013. Current puppy last year was three times that. More significantly, the annual registrations of our breed had dropped in that time from around 400 to below 100, so borderline rare breed status now.
I can't disagree that 20% for the whippet is a worryingly high inbreeding coefficient. The inbreeding coefficient of our breed is 2.3, our current girl is at 0.6, so our breed, although low in registrations, is actually in pretty good shape. Hip and elbow scores are also consistently low, unlike the situation in some of the other giant breeds. So we're doing okay compared to many. I'm very much a one breed person so next dog will be another PMD although they're increasingly difficult to get hold of.

As far as dog threads here on mn goes, I am on a crusade with @LandSharksAnonymous to try to help people understand the risks of buying puppies. It is all too easy for first time dog owners to be conned and end up with a puppy farmed dog. We possibly both come across as opinionated at times, but it all comes from a genuine concern about bad breeding practices and the poor health that is often the end result of that.

Good luck in your quest for the perfect dog, whether it be Whippet or Windhound, you're clearly doing plenty of research into your chosen breeds, and I'm sure the right dog is out there somewhere.

If you fancy a Silken Windhound (had to look it up- quite a nice looking dog with the wankiest made up name ever) then you're probably going to be a bit limited on this side of the Atlantic. Along the same basic idea though - on both sides of the Irish Sea lurchers with some Saluki in are pretty popular for lamping so you could get a pup at source (ethics: variable) or ask Lurcher Link if you didn't mind an adult dog (condition of dog's limbs: variable)

Neither do you!

the difference is the OP admits it & isnt trying to sound superior.

@CoubousAndTourmaIet and @powershowerforanhour

I also had to look it up. Not heard of them before, but very pretty dog. I’m going to try and remember the breed, in case I’m ever on Pointless (and if the score is two, I’ll know who the guilty parties are!).

@ACavalierDream might also find a saluki lurcher at a rescue centre. The downside, if you want a pet, of dogs bred specifically for lamping (which can be legal) and coursing (which never is) is that they generally have a high prey drive.

A friend has a saluki lurcher who came from a coursing bust. Delightful, soulful dog, wonderful with children, Angel of Death to rabbits.

As an aside, serious lurcher people are great to talk to. They will tell you their dog's ancestry to the nth generation if you evince any interest.

My only issue with people having 'designer' crossbreeds (insertabreedapoo etc) is when they claim to get the 'best' genetic attributes of both breeds. Not how genetics work - you could end up with the worst!
KC registered pedigrees tend to have health tested parents but it won't guarantee anything.

I see no difference between bull lurchers and musclebound macho fighting breeds; both are bred to fight, maim, kill. But then I'm against blood sports, so it's hardly surprising that I would have this opinion.

This is such an interesting thread to me. We have had a purebred yellow lab who we adored and was a wonderful dog but had a myriad of health problems. Next was a rescue who looked to be the combination of 120 different breeds and he was completely healthy until he became ill at the age of 15 and we had to PTS to end his suffering. At the same time we had another rescue who was a great pyrenees/yellow lab mix and she is quiet, athletic and a great dog. Our most recent dog is a mini bernedoodle who is also a rescue that came to us at 10 weeks. I will admit that we first considered him because we thought he would shed less that our other dog, and he does. He is also the most smart, hyper and vocal dog we have ever had. He makes us laugh everyday! The part that I am having trouble getting used to is the frequent grooming he requires. We have never had a dog that needed grooming and it is expensive.

Depends what you mean by "won't guarantee anything" really. It can confirm whether your dog is likely to have dysplasia in hips or elbows or develop certain inherited eye conditions.

A bull lurcher is just a dog with a high prey drive, bred to work like a working line gundog. It's not bred to fight, it's bred to hunt.

ETA, fox control isn't a blood sport.

Not always. I have a golden retreiver and its common for well known breeders to get hip and elbow x-rays at 12 months to ensure the scores are as low as possible. Sadly I know of a lot of people who have bought puppies from parents with excellent hip scores and still ended up with a puppy that has hip displaysia.

Thank you. It has been and remains an interesting journey. Although the more I go the more I want the perfect pup from the perfect breeder. I have time on my side. I think I will stick to silken, whippets and iggies.

It was just very disheartening when I found out that some whippet breeders (technically at the top), had those bad coefficients. It almost feels like a no win situation.

My husband was interested in whiggies (cross between whippet and iggies) but I am a snob and prefer pedigrees. But it got me thinking, like OP, at to why cross breeding cant be done well if it worked for whippets. I understand your points and everyone else's. I think a previous poster was right. Back in the day, it was survival of the fittest so only the best of the breeds were used. Then like @LandSharksAnonymous said, generations of work led to have what we have today. I hope and pray people get less interested in whippets and iggies and they dont go the way other breeds have. Maybe the fundamental problem is that too many want dogs.

Good breeders can their dogs scores retested before both litters (if a bitch) and every 18 months if it’s a stud.

Also, parents health tests are not enough - there’s no excuse (really) not to be looking at grandparents health tests.

Those people have just bought dogs from
Bad breeders tbh. So the point made - if you use a good breeder - is still valid 😊And, with dysplasia, lots of issues can also be bought on early and in more severe cases by neglectful ownership.

Too many people buy dogs and think health scores are fine and it’s enough. It’s not. If you are letting your golden puppy have excessively long walks, letting it sleep on slippery surfaces, clambering upstairs, jumping on furniture, chasing balls, let it get overweight, jumping out of the car or into it etc, those are all factors - completely within the owners control - that can exacerbate dysplasia and, in extreme cases, create problems that may otherwise not have appeared for years or perhaps even as severely.

I was told when I got my whippet not to run with her for a full year. We of course took her on walks but not excessively. She then got trained steadily to run with my husband and could go to 7 miles in her heydays. Not the iggy, no way she can run with him but we were careful for a year and she is a jack in a box. But it is worth saying that whippets, certainly 15 years ago had no issues at all. Sturdy and healthy. We just had to wait for her joints to take the training. The picture seems to be changing but I stand corrected. I would to speak to the whippet version of @LandSharksAnonymous

@ACavalierDream 100%! As with so much when it comes to dogs, it’s common sense. But people seem to take ‘health tests’ as a reason to just go bananas and do completely inappropriate things.

My dogs are all exceptionally healthy. But my puppy will not be allowed to climb the stairs until she’s 18 months. And she’s been taught not to. She won’t be allowed to clamber onto furniture. Or to jump off it. I do it all to protect her, as you protected your Whippet!

Coincidence - was chatting to a Patterdale owner this week and that’s exactly how she described him. “A very singular dog, stubborn as a mule”.
I’ve often hankered after a Patterdale

Don't do it. Save yourself while you still can.

The type of dog that is generally healthier is a mutt. Neither of its parents will be fullbreed. From my understanding, dogs that are half-half are the least healthy. Most studies compare mutts to pedigree and full breed dogs. They dont include half-halfs.