Wisdom needed re pup purchase

[RockOnTommeh]

New to puppy buying, we've had a nightmare of an experience through sellers on Pets4Homes. Naively, not knowing any better, we used them. I'm sure if you're fortunate enough to get a 'good' seller, all would be well, but there is no way of being sure.

The so-called 'trusted breeder' from the Pets4Home website, without going into details, was not to be trusted. Another seller wanted to everything cash in hand, leaving us with no guarantees. Where else can we go to ensure we get a healthy little boy? Seeking anyone's words of wisdom or advice.

Ideally, we would like a mutt, a plain old, common or garden, heinz variety, mongrel. These days they all seem to be only 'designer' dogs of the 'poo' or 'doodle' variety. Ideally, we would prefer to rescue, but all rescues come with warnings not for children and/or cats. Having googled best doggy for young children and cats, not a pure breed, it came up with Cavapoo. But where to go? Where to start?

We got a miniature Australian labradoodle much like a cavapoo but with less chance of separation anxiety. With a Facebook group run by the breeders in the UK. We actually got us off pets4homes but spent a good few months looking advert and speaking to people before we actually bought. You will find that the kennel clubs own puppy platform is proper breeders and much less risky but you’ll never find a doodle on there and the cost might be a bit more.

If you like the idea of a cavapoo, look at bichons, miniature poodles or (pricy and not v common) Javanese, all family friendly little dogs.

We have a spaniel who is a total nutter very cat-friendly because the cats were there first, but it's not impossible to get a cat-friendly rescue. Most sites will let you filter by "suitable for cats".

Havanese, not Javanese. Thank you autocarrot.

How about a mini poodle, a Norwich terrier, a bichon, a show type cocker all nice smaller breeds,good family dogs.

Champdogs is a good resource for quality breeders.

Honestly I’d avoid any ‘poo’ or ‘doodles’, they are not ethically bred.
keep trying with rescues, maybe widen the search and try independent rescues rather than big ones. Greyhounds make lovely family dogs, you can rescue from the greyhound trust.

or would consider a very standard pure breed, like a Labrador or golden retriever. On the whole much easier to find (and confirm) good breeders.

Lots of rescues will rehome puppies with cats and kids. Puppies are trainable and adaptable. Are you set on a male dog?

You should pop your name on a list with some local rescues so you’re pre approved and have done the home checks etc.If you are willing to consider up to a year/18 months which is still puppy terrritory there are loads of options at rescues.

Whereabouts are you? 1 male and 2 female crossbreed 4 month pups up currently available at the charity our boy is from in the South. They get puppies every couple of months and rehome to those with young kids. Pics attached.

Lots of breeds are great with kids. Cavapoos no more so than a whippet, staffie or lab cross. I’m sure there are nice “poos” out there but they’re not really what I think of as a mutt. They’re a designer crossbreed. If you would prefer a rescue it is totally doable with your requirements 😀

Greyhounds are lovely but I wouldn't like to trust one with cats.

Agree the rescue. ours is older but the rescue we got her from often has puppies (from rescued breeding females). They are very open to cats/children if appropriate. I am in the SW so shout if close to you.

You might want to ask your local vet. They sometimes have the inside knowledge when it comes to pups needing homes. That's how we ended up with our spaniel.

I’ll get flamed for this but here goes….. a year ago I bought a pup from travellers who were in my village before Appleby Fair.
They’re old school real gypsies and have visited my village for 12 years pre fair and are friendly, never leave a mess etc.

I was walking along with my dogs, when the lady said come look at these pups. Next thing I know it was meant to be and I’d fallen in love with one of them who wouldn’t leave my lap. She def chose us!

She’s the most sweet natured, chilled, well socialised and trained pup I’ve ever had.

Whilst I’d normally go for rescues too and most of my pack of cats and dogs are rescues, I figured I was rescuing her from Appleby Horse Fair and the unknown there.
Im told there’s loads of dogs for sale there.
it’s on next weekend :)

I’m aware this is controversial. However I don’t see it’s any worse than the thousands of breeders on pets4home and I saw how well looked after and loved they were.

Also she was only £500 and is a 2.2kg Yorkie looking dog so would be £1000+ on Pets4home.

Whatever you decide, good luck with finding your perfect pup. The right one will find you!

I don't understand the issue against pedigrees?

I give this advice a lot, but - being completely honest - you have more recourse, and more chances of getting it right if you go for a breeder who sells pedigrees (and if you have young children, you should 100% focus on getting it 'right' - although tbh any person considering a dog should factor that into their thinking). A pedigree breeder (KC registered etc) will almost certainly take the puppy back if/when things go wrong - you won't find that with 99.9% of mongrel or designer doodle breeders.

It is also far easier to find all the information regarding things like health tests, inbreeding etc in Pedigree dogs. And you only have to consider it for one breed. Not just for the dam and sire, but also for the generations before it. That's important. You also only need to consider the personalty 'defects' of one breed if you go for a pedigree. If you get a mongrel, or 'designer doodle' (as you are considering), then you need to consider the personality defects of two breeds.

When it comes to mongrels or 'designer doodles' chances are that, despite what the 'breeder' says, the dogs probably haven't had the best start to life. There's a lot that goes on 'behind closed doors' for responsible breeders - including socialisation aspects - that many of these breeders do not adhere to (which is why I am so against them) and, more importantly, not just breeding two dogs because their puppies will make a mint. Ultimately, it means the puppy is very often not set up to have the best start in life and, very often, these breeders sell to people that no good breeder ever would. Unless you are going for a dog from a litter that has been bred to work...and I mean really work, chances are you're going to end up contributing to the puppy-farm trade, particularly something like a cavapoo.

It is possible to get a well-bred mongrel or designer doodle. But, it's very hard - as you are finding out. Most of the breeders of these dogs won't have health tested dam and sire. Those that have health tested dam and sire probably won't have health test records for grandparents - which are just as important IMO. And, as I said above, they won't have done all the socialisation etc etc. And, tbh, first time owners need all the help they can get in buying the right dog from the right home - why add more complexity in a situation where you are very often out of your depth?

Are pedigree dogs the perfect dog? Often, no. Are you more likely to find it easier, as a first time owner, to find a good breeder if it's a pedigree dog? Yes. Why? Because there's more of them around. There's more checks and balances in place on them. There's more information to help you 'weed' out the bad breeders.

The No.1 thing any potential dog owner should be doing is ensuring they are not contributing in any way, shape, or form to the puppy-farm trade. The No.2 thing they should do is ensure they get a dog that is healthy, happy and well-rounded. And they should never buy a dog if they cannot do No.1 and No.2

Beautiful!

Yes, we definitely want a boy. We are in the north Midlands. The house it will be coming to is small, so we are looking for something not tiny, but small to middling in size. It will be living with a killer cat and she would see anything tiny as prey. 😧

Good idea. Thank you.

As a complete novice, my thinking was the more there is in the mix, the less likely to get the various 'issues' that can plague pure breeds? I've no idea, we are just learning. Hence we went to a registered breeder and got our fingers very badly burned - and our hearts broken.

Thank you for your insight.

Thank you all @ACynicalDad @CriticalOverthinking @Gribbit987 @JustBitetheKnotsOff @LandSharksAnonymous @Largestlegocollectionever @lostmywayrightnow @Plentyofpets @SqueamishHamish for your ideas, suggestions and opinions - and gorgeous pictures! All very welcome, and adding to my steep learning curve.

We got ourselves a labradoodle girl ten years back from random home pets accidentally breeding. We saw both parents and the siblings and got our beautiful puppy. But then she grew to be about 3 sizes bigger than both parents something that happens often with hybrids. They also tend to be stronger with less genetic defects and better immunity. But there is always a chance factor. There are things in their personality that you didn't expect, it's nurture too and your home environment is a factor in how tour dog turns out. We all get some things wrong and many right. Taking on a puppy isn't that different from taking on a baby. There are always surprises, good and bad ones! Hope it turns out as rewarding for you as it has for us, wherever you get your puppy from.

The problem with mongrel puppies is that responsible people don’t breed their pets. They leave breeding to the experts, and either keep their dogs apart from others of the opposite sex, or neuter them. The days of loads of people just letting their dogs have a litter are over, really - so the only pet owners still doing it either don’t know what they’re doing or are just in it for the money. Either way, not the best start for an animal.

Kennel club registration on its own means little - puppy farmers can and do register with the KC. What you want is a combination of KC registration, their accredited breeders scheme, and a breeder who does genetic health testing for hereditary diseases and doesn’t breed from any affected dogs. They will also check the breeding co-efficient of the mating (basically, how related the parents are - obviously the more closely related the higher the chance of inheriting problems, so good breeders try to keep the coefficient as low as possible and below the breed average) and usually will only breed one or two litters a year, and have a waiting list. If you identify a breed which is generally quite healthy - and there are lots - and use a breeder like this, you’ll have a good chance of a healthy pup. Champdogs is a good website to use as you can filter to only search for breeders who do health tests and then get on their waiting list for a litter. A good breeder will grill you about your suitability, make you sign a contract to say you’re not going to breed from your dog and offer a lifetime rehoming guarantee if you cannot keep the dog. I wouldn’t go near P4H as there are so many puppy farmers on there.

Agree @Tygertiger - both of my dogs came from breeders who had been doing it for 20-30 years by the time we got our dogs, very well known for the breed and we could trace their dogs all over the US and UK. There is always an element of chance with any dog (any animal) even if all the right things are done of course.

im still friends with two of the people I got my first dog from and that is oooh nearly twenty years ago!

@Gribbit987
wouldn't have those coursing bred looking pups in a family home, they're kennel dogs and won't be happy chasing a ball.

As a complete novice, my thinking was the more there is in the mix, the less likely to get the various 'issues' that can plague pure breeds? I've no idea, we are just learning. Hence we went to a registered breeder and got our fingers very badly burned - and our hearts broken.

I do get it, @RockOnTommeh. It's hard to get right. It's really hard. I think you are confusing 'registered' breeder with being a 'good' breeder. It is easier to find a good breeder if they are KC registered - because you can check things like health tests, how many litters the dog has had etc. more easily - but finding a great breeder, is hard. It can take months of searching.

You talk about 'issues' that effect pedigrees. I assume you mean health issues (i.e. that all pedigree dogs are unhealthy).

So, let's take the 'healthy' dog argument. People often say that 'pedigree dogs are riddled with health issues.' And it's true, some are. But, health issues are just as likely to happen in mongrels, or doodles, as pedigrees.

Just because you've bred two separate breeds doesn't mean you've eliminated health issues. Look at Cockerpoos. Lots of them suffer from PRA (leading to blindness). PRA effects both Cockers and Poodles. Most 'doodle breeders' will claim that it's less likely that the puppies will suffer from PRA, but that's not true. Not unless the parents have been health tested. The only way to avoid them is to have as many health tests - of as many generations - as possible and be as careful with the stud and the dam as it is possible to be. Which is where pedigree breeding so often comes into it's own - because all the information you need to check parents, grandparents, great-grandparents health tests is at your fingers. But with mongrels or pedigrees? That's suddenly becomes a lot harder - if that information is available at all. And many designer doodle breeders do not breed from the healthiest dogs - they breed from family pets. And those dogs might be nice, and reasonably healthy. But are they the healthiest dogs out there of their breed? Probably not.

I'll give some examples for health testing, as I think it might be helpful for you to see it written down. I breed Golden Retrievers. Typically, they can suffer from elbow and hip dysplasia and eye issues (PRA) and heart defects. People often deem them to be 'unhealthy' (although nowhere near on a level with Pugs or Frenchies).

Typical scores for the breed (there are lots more tests that should be done, and I have done, but these are the main ones):
Elbows: 0/0
Hips: 8/8 (overall average is 17 for the breed)
PRA1 & 2: Clear.
Heart: Clear

My girl:
Elbows: 0/0
Hips: 2/3
PRA1& 2: Clear
Heart: Clear

The stud:
Elbows: 0/0
Hips: 3/3
PRA 1&2: Clear
Heart: Clear

The sorts of scores my girl (and her mum and her grandmother) have, are very rare in the breed. They are the result of over 50 years of my mum, and then me, breeding the healthiest dogs we can. It's reflective of months of research to find the right stud, to ensure the pups are healthy. Being honest, it's the sort of commitment that you will not find in designer doodles - at least not without months, if not years, of research.

I can guarantee that you will not find a 'Goldendoodle' where the Golden parent has health tests anywhere near as good as my girl nor the stud I used. Why? Because most pedigree breeders with scores like these breed to make the breed better.

Is it possible you might find a Goldendoodle where the Golden parent has decent health tests? Yes. I'm sure it is.

But why settle for decent when you could have incredible?

Edit; Just to say, I genuinely have nothing against designer doodles. But I think too many people buy them because they are popular or 'hypoallergenic' (and lets not go down that route) and lots of those people inadvertently contribute to puppy farming. If you can get a health doodle and you know what you are getting into, then go for it. But I view designer doodles a bit like Collies - they need the right person to buy them. Collies need the right owner because they are difficult dogs to own. Designer Doodles need the right owner because there are a lot of bad breeders - hiding behind fancy words - and that results in defective dogs.

The impact of the traveller community on dog rescues is vast. For a community that make up less than 1% of the population the abundance of dogs in rescues that can be traced back to them is very high.

My last 4 rescues/fosters have all been provably connected to travellers. Neglect, abandonment, death, awful injuries and puppy farming. That’s what your purchase has funded.

I’m not “flaming” you. But the decision you made perpetuates suffering of animals.

Sighthounds make great family pets and are routinely and happily settled in homes with different animals and kids. These dogs are 12 weeks old. Babies. Of course they can be rehomed to families!

All my dogs and fosters live in normal family settings. Some love ball, some don’t. Lots of dogs don’t like ball. Peculiar and inaccurate generalisation.

Dog trainer with many years of many breeds experience. If you are buying and not rescuing you are much better going for a health tested pedigree than a non health tested crossbreed unless you go down the lurcher route. Lurchers can be a behavioural gamble though.

Things have changed a lot in breeding and most not for the better. My KC pedigree dog far outstrips a lot of the dogs I teach that are designer crosses in health and temperament. They’re often nervy and have significant health issues. In fact I only know one of dozens that I’d want to recommend and he’s a rescue!

@LandSharksAnonymous But why settle for decent when you could have incredible?

I love that! Can I ask a question, please ... the scores you have shared: obviously 'Clear' is good, I get that, but the "Hips: 8/8 (overall average is 17 for the breed)" and 2/3 and 3/3 - what does all that mean? What would be the best for me to look for?

You could be persuading me that a cross breed may not be healthier.

I wouldn’t say a cavapoo is ideal. Very high energy. A straight Cavalier King Charles might be better.
You could go to the breed registry which has a list of breeders (not for designer dogs which cannot be registered). There will be a waiting list.
Mind you I had a miniature Australian labradoodle I’m pretty sure I found through some online listing. We visited the house and she had both parents there, a pedigree (they are almost pedigree dogs in Australia) and he was the best dog ever (sadly put to sleep last year at age 15 after developing a brain tumour).