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If you're worried about your pet's health, please speak to a vet or qualified professional.

Wisdom needed re pup purchase

39 replies

RockOnTommeh · 18/05/2025 14:15

New to puppy buying, we've had a nightmare of an experience through sellers on Pets4Homes. Naively, not knowing any better, we used them. I'm sure if you're fortunate enough to get a 'good' seller, all would be well, but there is no way of being sure.

The so-called 'trusted breeder' from the Pets4Home website, without going into details, was not to be trusted. Another seller wanted to everything cash in hand, leaving us with no guarantees. Where else can we go to ensure we get a healthy little boy? Seeking anyone's words of wisdom or advice.

Ideally, we would like a mutt, a plain old, common or garden, heinz variety, mongrel. These days they all seem to be only 'designer' dogs of the 'poo' or 'doodle' variety. Ideally, we would prefer to rescue, but all rescues come with warnings not for children and/or cats. Having googled best doggy for young children and cats, not a pure breed, it came up with Cavapoo. But where to go? Where to start?

OP posts:
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Tygertiger · 18/05/2025 19:34

RockOnTommeh · 18/05/2025 18:47

@LandSharksAnonymous But why settle for decent when you could have incredible?

I love that! Can I ask a question, please ... the scores you have shared: obviously 'Clear' is good, I get that, but the "Hips: 8/8 (overall average is 17 for the breed)" and 2/3 and 3/3 - what does all that mean? What would be the best for me to look for?

You could be persuading me that a cross breed may not be healthier.

Edited

This article explains hip scores:

https://www.bva.co.uk/canine-health-schemes/hip-scheme/

Hip dysplasia is common in some breeds (usually larger breeds, but not always) - eg Labradors. If you’re getting a puppy from a breed which is at risk, any breeder who doesn’t hip score their breeding dogs is a huge red flag. Similarly, some dogs are at increased risk of elbow dysplasia and should be scored for that too. Other dogs might require heart scans or tests for genetically inherited eye conditions such as PRA. The kennel club has a list of recommended health tests for each breed which you can ask breeders about (this is not the same as the puppies being “vet checked” which they should be as a basic minimum - it means that the parent dogs have had the required health checks prior to breeding and they can show you those certificates).

BVA Hip Dysplasia Scheme for dogs

Learn about how hip screening can help prevent hip dysplasia, a condition that can have a major impact on the health, behaviour and welfare of dogs. The Hip Dysplasia Scheme was established by BVA and the Kennel Club in 1965 to reduce the incidence and...

https://www.bva.co.uk/canine-health-schemes/hip-scheme

Tygertiger · 18/05/2025 19:35

RockOnTommeh · 18/05/2025 18:47

@LandSharksAnonymous But why settle for decent when you could have incredible?

I love that! Can I ask a question, please ... the scores you have shared: obviously 'Clear' is good, I get that, but the "Hips: 8/8 (overall average is 17 for the breed)" and 2/3 and 3/3 - what does all that mean? What would be the best for me to look for?

You could be persuading me that a cross breed may not be healthier.

Edited

Sorry, I meant to say - in the example above, each hip scored 8. The breed average is 17, and you want scores to be as low as possible, so that’s a good score 😊

LandSharksAnonymous · 18/05/2025 19:39

@RockOnTommeh, happy to help! I'm probably going to enter 'teacher mode' so apologies in advance if it sounds a bit teachery or preachy! I don't mean to!

Some dogs breeds are prone to severe elbow and hip issues. It's called 'dysplasia' which essentially means the hip or elbow joint hasn't formed properly. Dogs can be born with it and they can be genetically pre-disposed to get it as they get older. It's incredibly painful and can, in severe instances, stop the dog from being able to run or even walk without being in agony. There's a poster on mumsnet with a lab with really bad dysplasia and she has to take it to physiotherapy and swimming etc. It's not just about the pain it causes the dog, but also the financial strain (and I don't mean that to sound crude, but medication and treatment for things like dysplasia can very quickly add up).

The scoring system is pretty basic. The higher the number, the higher the chance a dog has of getting dysplasia. So, the lower the number the more confident you can be that the dog is healthy and won't develop dysplasia as it ages and, in turn, any offspring that dog has should have a lower chance of getting dysplasia.

Each 'elbow' (front legs) and 'hip' (the back legs) is measured against particular criteria. Those numbers are then added together to give an overall score. For elbows the maximum you can get is a '3' in each elbow and the lowest is '0'. For hips, the maximum you can get is '53' and the lowest is '0'. There's more 'flexibility' in hip scores (as is probably obviously by the higher number 53] compared to elbow scores [3]).

So, Hips: 8/8 : that means that each hip has been given an 8 out of a possible 53. The breed average is 17 altogether across both hips. So 8/8 would mean the dog had 16 altogether. My girl has a score of 2/3 in her hips. That means that one of her hips got a 2 out of 53, and one got 3 out of 53.

Ideally, you want dogs with the lowest possible hip scores. But it's not unusual for dogs hips to have quite different scores. So you could get one who has a Hip score like this: 4/13. Which, in theory, is good news - because it means the dog is perfectly at the breed average. But it's also bad news because that can lead to overcompensation (in very basic terms) by that dog because one score is actually very high (13 is not a good score, even though the overall average of 17 is perfectly average - if that makes sense). And then if the other parent has similar scores...you're in for a bit of a tricky time.

For elbows, I would never choose a stud with a score higher than '0' because if the maximum is '3', why would you got for a dog with a score of '1'?

Essentially, when you're buying a puppy you're not just buying the puppy. You're buying it's parents and the breeder as well. You're buying the pups parents health, and the breeders time and investment in the pups.

A live example would be to go to the KC website, search 'find a puppy' and enter 'Golden Retriever.' Click the one from 'Norwich' (Both parents fully health tested). I've used Goldie's as that's what I breed, so I know them like the back of my hand!

When you use the KC website and search through litters, it'll show you how health tested the dam and sire are (you should want 'fully health tested' -'KC good practice' or 'min 1 health test' is not good enough IMO because those health tests are there for a reason).

So, on this litter. The sire is Ovlinglay Locksmith. If you click on his name it'll take you to a page with all his details. You'll see all his health tests, how often they were done etc. Good breeders will have their dogs health tests done very few years (in sire's) and before every litter (dams). You'll see Ovinglay Locksmith has very good scores. 0:0 on elbows and 5:2 on hips. There's also an 'inbreeding coefficient,' which (essentially) relates to how inbred the dog is as a result of his parents and grandparents, along with a breed average. The lower the score the better. So for Goldies, the breed average is 6.8 but Ovinglay Locksmith has a score of 9.1%. So, overall, I'd say he's a pretty good stud. He's got good health scores, he's been recently tested for eye conditions.

The dam is Camelia Sweetheart. Again if you click on her name you can see all her health tests. All fairly good. Her hip scores are a bit high at 5:7 - but still below the breed average. She's quite inbred at 14.1%. So, overall I'd say she's a reasonable dam.

But that's not all there is to it. You have to compare them together, so if you navigate back to the main page of the litter, click on one of the pups. So, this breeder has done some health tests on her pups already. That's good. Then you can scroll down and see how inbred the pups are - 7.9%.

What does this mean for the puppies? Parents hip scores are well below the breed average (5:2 and 5:7 respectively) and their elbow scores are perfect (0:0). The puppies will only be 1% more inbred than the breed average, which is good. The parents both have clear eye exams. If you bought a puppy from this litter you could probably be fairly confident (in so far as you can ever be with genetics) that the puppies would live pretty healthy, happy, lives.

But, the real benefit with a pedigree, is that you can see the health test scores of the grandparents. So if you click on Ovinglay Locksmith again and scroll to his 'family tree' you'll be able to click on his parents (so the puppy you'd theoretically be buying grandparents) and look at their health tests. Likewise, for the dam.
What you'll see from them is that, over time, the dogs have become 'healthier' because of selective breeding (for example one of each 'grandparent' to the current litter had an elbow score of 1:0). Likewise, you can see the great-grandparents health tests etc.

As I said, that's the real benefit of buying a pedigree - all of this is available to you at the click of a button. The problem with designer dogs is that this isn't readily available and many of the best breeders of the pedigree dogs (i.e. those breeders who have spent years breeding the healthier dogs they can) won't stud their dog out to produce designer doodles.

I do genuinely have nothing against designer doodles as a breed (personally I think cockerpoos are quite attractive little things and I can certainly see the appeal). I just think finding a good breeder for them, finding all the health tests for parents and grandparents etc, is really hard if not downright impossible.

And, at the same time, I understand the dislike and distrust people have of pedigree breeders. The Kennel Club has made a lot of mistakes over the last few years,

Overall, I think a lot of people can be a bit blase when it comes to finding a breeder and a puppy. Finding a good breeder takes time - weeks and months - and there is a very high chance that, to get your perfect happy, healthy, puppy, you will have to wait.

RockOnTommeh · 18/05/2025 20:07

LandSharksAnonymous · 18/05/2025 19:39

@RockOnTommeh, happy to help! I'm probably going to enter 'teacher mode' so apologies in advance if it sounds a bit teachery or preachy! I don't mean to!

Some dogs breeds are prone to severe elbow and hip issues. It's called 'dysplasia' which essentially means the hip or elbow joint hasn't formed properly. Dogs can be born with it and they can be genetically pre-disposed to get it as they get older. It's incredibly painful and can, in severe instances, stop the dog from being able to run or even walk without being in agony. There's a poster on mumsnet with a lab with really bad dysplasia and she has to take it to physiotherapy and swimming etc. It's not just about the pain it causes the dog, but also the financial strain (and I don't mean that to sound crude, but medication and treatment for things like dysplasia can very quickly add up).

The scoring system is pretty basic. The higher the number, the higher the chance a dog has of getting dysplasia. So, the lower the number the more confident you can be that the dog is healthy and won't develop dysplasia as it ages and, in turn, any offspring that dog has should have a lower chance of getting dysplasia.

Each 'elbow' (front legs) and 'hip' (the back legs) is measured against particular criteria. Those numbers are then added together to give an overall score. For elbows the maximum you can get is a '3' in each elbow and the lowest is '0'. For hips, the maximum you can get is '53' and the lowest is '0'. There's more 'flexibility' in hip scores (as is probably obviously by the higher number 53] compared to elbow scores [3]).

So, Hips: 8/8 : that means that each hip has been given an 8 out of a possible 53. The breed average is 17 altogether across both hips. So 8/8 would mean the dog had 16 altogether. My girl has a score of 2/3 in her hips. That means that one of her hips got a 2 out of 53, and one got 3 out of 53.

Ideally, you want dogs with the lowest possible hip scores. But it's not unusual for dogs hips to have quite different scores. So you could get one who has a Hip score like this: 4/13. Which, in theory, is good news - because it means the dog is perfectly at the breed average. But it's also bad news because that can lead to overcompensation (in very basic terms) by that dog because one score is actually very high (13 is not a good score, even though the overall average of 17 is perfectly average - if that makes sense). And then if the other parent has similar scores...you're in for a bit of a tricky time.

For elbows, I would never choose a stud with a score higher than '0' because if the maximum is '3', why would you got for a dog with a score of '1'?

Essentially, when you're buying a puppy you're not just buying the puppy. You're buying it's parents and the breeder as well. You're buying the pups parents health, and the breeders time and investment in the pups.

A live example would be to go to the KC website, search 'find a puppy' and enter 'Golden Retriever.' Click the one from 'Norwich' (Both parents fully health tested). I've used Goldie's as that's what I breed, so I know them like the back of my hand!

When you use the KC website and search through litters, it'll show you how health tested the dam and sire are (you should want 'fully health tested' -'KC good practice' or 'min 1 health test' is not good enough IMO because those health tests are there for a reason).

So, on this litter. The sire is Ovlinglay Locksmith. If you click on his name it'll take you to a page with all his details. You'll see all his health tests, how often they were done etc. Good breeders will have their dogs health tests done very few years (in sire's) and before every litter (dams). You'll see Ovinglay Locksmith has very good scores. 0:0 on elbows and 5:2 on hips. There's also an 'inbreeding coefficient,' which (essentially) relates to how inbred the dog is as a result of his parents and grandparents, along with a breed average. The lower the score the better. So for Goldies, the breed average is 6.8 but Ovinglay Locksmith has a score of 9.1%. So, overall, I'd say he's a pretty good stud. He's got good health scores, he's been recently tested for eye conditions.

The dam is Camelia Sweetheart. Again if you click on her name you can see all her health tests. All fairly good. Her hip scores are a bit high at 5:7 - but still below the breed average. She's quite inbred at 14.1%. So, overall I'd say she's a reasonable dam.

But that's not all there is to it. You have to compare them together, so if you navigate back to the main page of the litter, click on one of the pups. So, this breeder has done some health tests on her pups already. That's good. Then you can scroll down and see how inbred the pups are - 7.9%.

What does this mean for the puppies? Parents hip scores are well below the breed average (5:2 and 5:7 respectively) and their elbow scores are perfect (0:0). The puppies will only be 1% more inbred than the breed average, which is good. The parents both have clear eye exams. If you bought a puppy from this litter you could probably be fairly confident (in so far as you can ever be with genetics) that the puppies would live pretty healthy, happy, lives.

But, the real benefit with a pedigree, is that you can see the health test scores of the grandparents. So if you click on Ovinglay Locksmith again and scroll to his 'family tree' you'll be able to click on his parents (so the puppy you'd theoretically be buying grandparents) and look at their health tests. Likewise, for the dam.
What you'll see from them is that, over time, the dogs have become 'healthier' because of selective breeding (for example one of each 'grandparent' to the current litter had an elbow score of 1:0). Likewise, you can see the great-grandparents health tests etc.

As I said, that's the real benefit of buying a pedigree - all of this is available to you at the click of a button. The problem with designer dogs is that this isn't readily available and many of the best breeders of the pedigree dogs (i.e. those breeders who have spent years breeding the healthier dogs they can) won't stud their dog out to produce designer doodles.

I do genuinely have nothing against designer doodles as a breed (personally I think cockerpoos are quite attractive little things and I can certainly see the appeal). I just think finding a good breeder for them, finding all the health tests for parents and grandparents etc, is really hard if not downright impossible.

And, at the same time, I understand the dislike and distrust people have of pedigree breeders. The Kennel Club has made a lot of mistakes over the last few years,

Overall, I think a lot of people can be a bit blase when it comes to finding a breeder and a puppy. Finding a good breeder takes time - weeks and months - and there is a very high chance that, to get your perfect happy, healthy, puppy, you will have to wait.

Edited

@LandSharksAnonymous

Sincerely, I am very happy that you went into 'teacher mode' - although I couldn't see it, tbh. Simply, your reply was so helpful and comprehensive. Thank you. A lot to ponder, but I now have far more understanding. It's simple when you know.

I've just spent ages on the KC website, trying (and failing, so far) in simply finding a directory of breeders and to start learning, at quick sight, who are the 'good' ones.

I agree about the 'cuteness' of the designer doodle 'brand', but the whole designer thing and not acknowledging that they are, basically, mongrels doesn't sit well my autistic 'say it as it is' trait. There is nothing wrong with a lovely mongrel, but I also get a bit sniffy (I don't know if that's the right word) about 'designer' anything - 'labels' mean not a lot to me. Each to their own and all that, but ... 🤐

Thanks again for your patience and willingness to educate.

OP posts:
RockOnTommeh · 18/05/2025 20:10

@Tygertiger thank you for the helpful link and detail.

OP posts:
waitingforautumn · 18/05/2025 20:17

Have a look at Many Tears Rescue (they’re on Instagram) - shelter based in south wales and they do advertise dogs that would be suitable for homes with other pets/children

My golden retrievers were from pets4homes pre pandemic but naively we wanted purebred puppies. Would prefer to rescue in future but things to look for would be: a seller who encourages you to visit, who lets you see the mum with the puppies, who wants the puppies to go to the RIGHT home not any home. Vaccinations should all be up to date. A good breeder should ask you as many questions as you are asking them. Trust your instincts.

S0j0urn4r · 18/05/2025 20:23

Please consider rescue. Online ads are often from puppy farms etc. Please don't support this disgusting practice.

OnlyHerefortheBiscuits · 18/05/2025 21:28

Genuine question (and perhaps @LandSharksAnonymous can help)

Say you found what you believe is a reputable breeder and you ask to see health tests. Breeder shows bits of paper saying great things.

How does the buyer know those bits of paper are legitimate? What should they look like? What logos should they have? Is it like a certificate where there is a hologram thingy? If not, then they're easily forged right? How do buyers know that the bits of paper they are being shown are legitimate tests, from legitimate sources and definitely "belong" to the dogs in question?

This is something I have never understood. Anyone can be shown health tests... but anyone can create some pretty official looking dosuments if they wanted to

RockOnTommeh · 18/05/2025 22:18

Oooh, good question @OnlyHerefortheBiscuits

OP posts:
LandSharksAnonymous · 19/05/2025 06:10

@RockOnTommeh @OnlyHerefortheBiscuits

Really good question! Anyone can print off official looking paperwork. I could probably knock some up on thirty minutes (they wouldn’t be great, but I could probably fool a few people).

Ultimately, the easiest way to know the health tests and wider paperwork is genuine is to check via the KC website. It’s why when people say they’ve gone to purchase a dog from Champdogs (for example) my instinct is always ‘cross-check with the KC.’ The KC is like your own bible when it comes to checking the validity of a litter, that the breeder is who they say they are (we all have kennel names) and that the stud that was used was actually used. As I mentioned last night, the KC website allows you not just to see the health tests and history of the dam/sire but also grandparents, great-grandparents etc. So even if you’re confident the breeder is showing you truthful information about the parents…why wouldn’t you want to check the grandparents out as well?

You could do things like ring up the vet that allegedly did the tests (or even google to see if they exist) but no good vet will divulge a dogs medical history and of course just because a vet exists it doesn’t mean they did the tested.

Which is another reason why doodle (or any designer breed) purchasing can be so risky. There’s no central ‘bible’ that shows the validity of the health tests or, even, that the dog is who the breeder says it is or that the dam is who the breeder says it is.

I would stress though that you can, still, find bad KC breeders! The KC system isn’t perfect, but it is a means to streamline finding a good breeder and makes things like checking the parents health a lot easier.

RockOnTommeh · 19/05/2025 08:46

@LandSharksAnonymous again, such useful insights. Thank you. It is such a minefield, but it seems that the KC is the best safeguard. We are very newly bereaved of our little boy, (oh dear, here come the tears again) and I need to do a lot more research and thinking before falling for another.

OP posts:
TidyTealRobin · 19/05/2025 13:09

I can't imagine a breeder who makes their living from selling puppies ever owning up to being less than excellent or best. Each breeder would also emphasise the bits that are excellent in their dogs. The hip score and elbow score may be excellent in a labrador that has a genetic eating disorder. Many do! The only alternative is not puppy farms or designer breeds. Rescue is commendable, of course. But you can't always find puppies of the sort you or your children want when you want them. Older dogs may suit some, a large number are openly advertised as not suitable for families with children. They are often rejected after being mistreated by children where parents didn't realise what was happening. Do use your Common sense and please don't get a very high intelligence dog breed used usually as a police dog, then expect them to stay quietly without any stimulation or exercise. Stupid dogs are much better if you are short of time and energy.

Newpeep · 20/05/2025 10:35

Another good indicator of care and quality is a kennel name or prefix. That means the breeder is proud of the dogs they produce as their name is attached to them! It’s not a rock solid guarantee but a good guide. My dog has a kennel name before her KC name and when it appears on training titles it’s advertising for the breeder in effect.

dreamingofsun · 20/05/2025 20:57

One of the things that most impressed me when i bought a puppy was the breeder quizzing me, before they would even consider me looking at their puppies. a breeder who didnt really care where their puppies are going would be a red flag for me.

there is some info on the kennel club website about what to ask when looking.

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