Need a handhold/advice

[4legsgood39]

After a lot of thought about what we could offer a dog and carefully considering what breed would be a good fit, we adopted a 12 week puppy from a reputable rescue charity. (We’d previously been turned down for various dogs, rightly, because the charity felt we couldn’t meet their more complex needs.)

Unfortunately our pup has had a lot of behavioural issues (plus they and we have been unlucky in getting various nasty infections since the adoption, although now sorted thankfully.) She isn’t anything like typical for her breed-more like a working dog in that she needs about 10 hours stimulation/attention a day, very high energy and not at all east going.

We’ve been trying really hard, spending lots of time and money on training, behavioural help, walks, interesting toys, and some doggy daycare to help keep us sane (she adores the family she goes to and literally leaps into their arms when they come to pick her up.)

We thought maybe it was us, although working with a behaviourist from the charity who has done various tests, they have said she is way over the “normal” dog levels for anxiety and frustration, is right at the extreme end, and so it’s no wonder we’ve been finding things hard.

I realise we were a bit niaive but are first time puppy owners and we were upfront about our situation and limitations-one of us can nearly always be around but we both work part-time, live in a small-ish flat (with garden and near parks) and I have a health condition which limits my energy levels. We’ve found out since adopting that it’s well-known, and was even something someone from the charity said to us after the adoption, that puppies with her start in life (breeding in bad conditions) are much more likely to develop these sorts of issues.

We’re working on various strategies to help our puppy self-soothe and may have to look into medication for a short time to bring down her anxiety. She’s scared of many things and is barking for hours a day as she’s so anxious and sound sensitive.

Behaviourist is now saying it could be another 6-8 months before she calms down as she’s going into teenhood.

Just feeling worried how we are going to cope as the stress and amount of time we’re spending on training etc. is causing arguments. Also feeling guilty and sad-if we’d been given a heads up on this before we adopted we might not hade gone ahead and she could have gone to a better equipped home. Or at least we could have been prepared and got support in place sooner. We both adore her and really don’t want to rehome her, especially as assuming that would be difficult now as she has known issues?

Any encouragement or advice would be very welcome.

3 different rescue dogs and various cats raised here

my experience is You will get there..it’s a lot for her and very early days. She will have had a disrupted start so all the more tricky. So much going on for her but if you keep going my belief is she will learn your routines and settle in time, realize she doesn’t need to be doing what she currently is and she can let herself off. This has what’s happened for me over many months and often a couple of years each time for some aspects of behaviour.

it’s a bit left field maybe, but my rescue pup settles more when she realizes I’m definitely not available, like on the phone to a friend who I speak to regularly..she knows there is no chance and just settles - she must know the pattern/nuance of my voice etc when I speak to this particular friend. Dogs learn by connection not foresight if that makes sense. “Right so I definitely know mummy not available when this happens” so I’ll go and do this instead so to speak. I guess I’m saying are you “waiting in the wings” all the time…rhetorical question, just something to consider no need to answer

I actually don’t think this is overly unusual for an active pup. Maybe the extreme end but it does happen. They do calm down but yes she needs to learn to settle. Some dogs are mellow and some not. Some are demon pups and calm adults and vice versa. I help run a training club and have seen hundreds.

I’m going to second finding a behavioural vet or vet behaviourist that can prescribe something like fluoxetine

One of mine has been on it for about 5 months, it’s not a quick fix, but it has lowered his stress levels enough that he’s actually receptive to training now.

What's her diet/stools like? Our boy was very hyper and couldn't settle at all. We worked out he couldn't tolerate chicken (and many other foods). He basically had IBS/pain. Now his diet is sorted he's a much calmer dog

Yes that’s my fear, as she’s at such extremes with it. I definitely want to look into medication to bring her anxiety down so that hopefully the behavioural work will stick, but partner is less keen. Just feeling very sad/frustrated and guilty as we could go through next 6-8 months and it still be a terrible fit. Spent all of yesterday evening in the bedroom (her quiet room) to make sure she rested/slept. The idea is that we build up gradually to her being on her own, a few minutes at a time. At the moment she can’t tolerate any time alone, and as soon as I tried to leave she was up. Totally sucks

Thank you. Yes we are working on ignoring her/having a quiet time when she doesn’t get attention. Good idea to have a specific signal though-perhaps reading my book

That’s interesting to hear. I think she’s in the demon pup group 😂

Thank you. Yes I’m keen to explore this route although my partner doesn’t like the idea-will work on persuading him if she hasn’t settled at all after some further weeks of the calming strategies. As previous posters have said, I think she will be suffering horribly with the anxiety so I really want to help her

Are you a member of FB? Dog Training Advice and support is brilliant. They also have a website now and a book. Advice by qualified behaviourists and trainers. I think she is too young for meds as she will be hormonally all over the place. They do really go up and down as adolescents and anxiety is pretty normal. They do level out a bit as they mature. Ours was spayed at 2 and has levelled out more now but still has her moments as I said above.

Thank you. This really resonates. She definitely responds very badly with pain, far more active/attention seeking and bitey. She had a bad infection and was like this until it was fully cleared up with medication. We have worked out she has an intolerance to chicken-bad watery eyes and tear stains-someone suggested it could be chicken and cutting this out noticeably helps. May I ask how you approached this? Was there a particular food you put your pup on/exclusion diet? We did ask our vet but they thought the eye watery could be allergies to something like grass or chemicals inside the home (we haven’t been able to figure out which, if any.)

Thank you, I’ll look into this

What do they not like about the idea?

It’s not tranquillising or anything, literally the only side effect we’ve had is he went off his food for a couple of days, which is pretty common. It increases seratonin so it’s licenced for separation anxiety and used off licence for other anxiety issues.

He’s completely his normal self except a bit less anxious. He has some extreme reactivity and what we’ve found is that he’s giving more normal reactions to things and I can calm him quicker and I do think he sleeps better, but only because he’s not stressed out the same.

I’m still having to do the behavioural work with him, it’s just that he’s no longer so freaked out by things that there’s no way it could work.

I also have trazadone for vets visits… that very much does zonk him out 🤣 it’s very obvious when he’s had that, the fluoxetine definitely doesn’t do that.

Besides, if you tried a drug and it didn’t agree with your dog, you just stop it.

I’m glad it’s helped your pup. That’s what I’m hoping for-take the edge off her severe anxiety enough for the behaviour training to work. I don’t really understand why he’s so
against it. To be fair I have taken medication for anxiety and unfortunately had huge problems and side effects, but I don’t think that should colour our approach with our pup

It’s basically private medicine, so there’s none of this… hmm, there’s nothing else we can prescribe you so you just have to put up with the side effects.

I have an ongoing medical issue, I wish I could see a vet instead tbh 😐🤣

I mean this kindly, I think you were a bit naive, and this is pretty much how puppy hood looks.. was the dog homed before you had her. I've always had dogs,2 at one point 3, usually border collies, I have a 9 year old (she's complaining now it's dinner time) and a one year old. I realistically feel the first year is full on. I got ripped apart on MN last year, someone said tell me the truth about having a puppy, and I did! Having said that, I don't "suffer" from puppy blues, I accept house training ,chewing, teething everything,is part and parcel of forming this lovely new dog. We thought very long and hard about 6 months after loosing our little toy last year at almost 18, whether we should get a puppy as I was 73, got COVID first time ever really badly when we had had her for 3 weeks. We got 2 bitch border collie puppies 6 months apart once when I had 3 young kids and worked full time nights, nursing. I've had lots of health issues the past year, and it's lovely to have her snuggled up with me,cheers me up no end. I stopped walking her late at night,it made her ridiculously hyper, she would come in *zoom from one sofa to the next.

Oh yes definitely I agree. think I was niaive and puppyhood would have been a shock to the system either way.

The walking, training, chewing and mouthing aren’t really issues, we sort of expected all that. But she’s basically afraid of everything (apart from people), constantly hyper-vigilant so barking for hours a day because of the slightest noise, on the go wanting stimulation for 10 hours a day, and separation anxiety so extreme if we have a bath or shower she’s absolutely panicked and barking.

She was from puppy farm conditions and clearly traumatised, we adopted her at 3 months so no previous owner.

Behaviourist at the charity said she on the extreme of the bell curve for both anxiety and frustration, so anyone would struggle.
So I don’t think she’s your average puppy.

Having said all that, if people fully knew in advance how hard puppyhood was, and if puppies weren’t so cute, would anyone ever get a puppy 😂

Ps would be infested to see your previous post about puppyhood, and I think it’s good you were honest! Can you link it

High intelligence, high anxiety, reactive skin and reactive gut are four things that very often go together.
Another thing that I observe is that this type of dog very often ends up placed with (with respect) highly empathetic, ultra-soft-hearted people who are often quite anxious themselves, and frequently dubious about conventional medicine. Sometimes the owners' anxieties exacerbate the dog's anxieties.
Also, anxiety is highly heritable in dogs, as in humans. If you met your dog's parents or siblings, they would likely show similar traits. While your dog's early life could certainly have been better, the issues you are seeing are primarily nature, not nurture.

Unfortunately some rescue puppies are a result of inbreeding.

There may be neurological disorders and or behavioural problems.

Noise Aversion. Separation anxiety. Hyperactivity and excessive vigilance are just some of those problems.

That’s interesting about the 4 being linked. And yes, we are both big softies and I have had bad anxiety in the past. I’m very open to conventional medicine though, I take a pragmatic view.

Gosh I’m really hoping not 😔

I suspect she might have fared better with a very experienced but also “tough love” type owner, but sadly we are where we are now

Our GSD was like this and we initially made the mistake of giving her more stimulation. Once we figured we were doing the wrong thing it all became easier - slowly. I now recognise when she has been over stimulated and know to let her chill / settle , ignore her - it works. She chills more, is more relaxed . At nearly 2 she is still a handful sometimes but nothing compared to the way she was. Work at the settle and not overdoing stimulation. Scent / brain training is very good.

Thank you. Did you find any particularly good toys/ideas for the scent training?

Dogs seem to learn very quickly when you obviously withdraw attention, and thus close the path to whatever it is that they want.

My two get wildly excited at the thought of a walk (not at all helped by DH not being willing to follow any strategies for getting them to chill out... But that's another conversation). I've given up asking them to sit if they're being particularly wild, as the younger one has very little self-control when she's excited (she is genetically quite an anxious and easily over-stimulated dog). Instead, I just sit down and get my phone out. It doesn't matter if I actually read anything on it or not: I just sit there looking at it, and they clam down, sit down, and look at me. It took them perhaps 10 minutes the first time I tried this to work it out (and it's always harder with two of them, because you have to wait until both dogs get the idea at the same time). Now I just sigh and sit and get out the phone and you can see them thinking, 'Uh-oh, no-one goin' no-where till boring-arse stands up, and she won't do that till we STFU.'

You do need to be quite determined and to have the patience of a bloody saint to make it work. This is why a phone is good: you can grind your brain on Wordle or a sudoku or whatever, which distracts you from the fact that you also want to get out for a bloody walk!