Removing a dog from an elderly relative

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Can anyone advise on what the legal position is for "removing" a dog from an elderly relative that isn't remembering to feed it?

Short version of key points - Relative has dementia, but is in denial. Was recently assessed as having mental capacity by GP and Social Services. Really needs a dog walker / home help type support but is adamantly refusing to accept any assistance.

Fast forward a month and the rate of deterioration has accelerated and we need to (a) get the dog out while we sort out immediate crisis and (b) try and get the relative to sign the dog over to us on a long term / permanent basis. It is now becoming a welfare issue for both the dog and the relative.

For the sake of not drip feeding too, the relative in question has a long history of mental health issues and a personality disorder, and they despise us so, although we are the best placed to take the dog, we don't have the option of reasoning with the relative. Consequently we are having to do this through third parties who seem to think that they can just turn up at the house today and take the dog on a walk and drop it at our house. My concern is that if said elderly relative has a lucid/ malicious moment we could end up with the Police on our doorstep. Also, I think this approach will be super distressing for the person in question.

Any advice most gratefully received! We just want to do the right thing here.

Ask101? Is the dog chipped to said relative? Not that it really matters. Police won't do anything ime anyway.

What do you think would happen if the police were called?

Your local neighbourhood Bobby might pop round / call you, you explain elderly parent was neglecting the dog due to their dementia and you are taking care of it. That'll be it, they might advise you to take it for visits. They aren't going to arrest you for stealing it.

Yes chipped to the relative. So sounds like Police won't be that interested.

Can we get the vet to register it with us without permission from the relative? Essentially if we take it on we will need to be able to get it insured and treated under our name. Or does the relative have to sign it over formally?

If welfare is a concern then contacting the RSPCA may be the best option to legally remove the dog. It will probably take time and not stop suffering in the interim though.

It sounds like another medical assessment is in order?
I think I'd be inclined to take the dog, take pictures of its condition at the time. I can't see a prosecution being raised if relatives rehome a dog that is being neglected from a dementia sufferer.

Thanks. We did wonder if we should go this route.

Involve Social Services but probably route A remove the dog one day is the way to go...

As long as all the parties agree it's a best interests move, I can't see how any professionals will object.

I think ddog being dropped off by third parties is an excellent idea - how advanced is relatives dementia?

Does anyone have POA? This sounds like an occasion to exercise it.

No POA. Relative refuses it.
Social services have been dreadful to date but they are on my list to contact this morning.
Just called RSPCA and they won't do anything unless I have eyeballed the dog, which I can't do as the relative won't let me through the door.
No idea how advanced the dementia actually is. They were assessed late August/early September and told they were fine and we were contacted by GP practice to confirm.

Personally my view is that if things are this bad then health professionals need to be called and as part of that we take the dog on "respite" while the relative is assessed but the dog doesn't go back. Deals with both issues at the same time. But the rest of the family don't want to do this.

I think you have to go via the RSPCA

She is the legal owner of the dog and has recently been assessed to have capacity. You cannot just take it without some kind of legal back up even if you have concerns for the dogs welfare. You need official back up.

You can only act in the best interests of a person who lacks capacity otherwise they have a right to live as they please if they have capacity and taking their dog will be stealing even if it's with good motives.

RSPCA are useless.

I'm sorry you are in that position. Can the local vet offer advice on reforming and re-registering?

My DM had a bad dog situation and to this day I regret not doing more, so appreciate how difficult it is to do the "right" thing.

Probably best to regard it as anasognosia rather than denial (currently dealing with someone with this, again very difficult).

Think social services is the way to go plus get whoever is seeing the dog to contact the RSPCA.

We're assuming things have moved on here. Totally understand about capacity and that people are entitled to make poor decisions but letting a dog suffer is another thing and as I've said, I regret not being more proactive in the past.

The RSPCA is the place to go but often seem unable/unwilling to act. Adult social care, rspca and the council dog warden. Best of luck

I've spent my last 20 years being shot down in flames for saying this and im sure i'll be shot down again, but I'm a huge fan of lying to people with dementia. I'm very keen on causing the least amount of stress possible for what is already one of the most despicable illness to take our minds.
Depending on the advancement of relatives dementia I'd lie to whatever they'd accept.
It's thinking of a lie that will solve the solution without causing distress which is entirely dependent on the level of dementia being discussed.
Sorry you're in this situation x

If it helps at all, I've rehomed two dogs and had to change the chip details.
The first was my daughter's dog, all I had to do was describe him, say his name and who he was registered to and pay the fee.
My daughter was not contacted at all to give permission.
The 2nd was from a case of elder abuse by her son and the dog was caught up in the middle of it. The lady went into a nursing home and her carer took the dog and she was given to me.
The chip company emailed the lady, had no reply within 30 days and was put in my name.

Absolutely agree. I don’t mean this to sound too simplistic, but with dementia, the sufferer won’t remember anyway and will have mentally moved on whilst you’re still tying yourself up in knots over ‘doing the right thing’ Sometimes it’s kinder to tell them what makes them happy rather than what is factually correct.

I had exactly the same issue with my mother and her cat. She either wasn’t feeding it or putting down totally inappropriate food. It also didn’t have access to outside or a litter tray so the poor animal was peeing and pooing by the back door so was a health hazard to both DM and the cat.

Agree the RSPCA don’t tend to be much help so I asked a solicitor where I stood. He referred me to the Animal Welfare Act 2006 and said because of neglect, intentional or unintentional, the law was very much on my side.

The Animal Welfare Act 2006 is the principal law relating to animal welfare, protecting all vertebrate animals.
Under the Act, owners and keepers have a duty of care to their animals and must make sure they meet their needs:

• for a suitable environment and place to live
• for a suitable diet
• to exhibit normal behaviour patterns
• to be housed with, or apart from, other animals (if applicable)
• to be protected from pain, injury, suffering and disease

I managed to take the cat by telling DM I was just taking it ‘to get its annual injections’ so maybe you could offer to ‘walk the dog’

DM asked me only once afterwards where the cat was and I just told her it was absolutely fine and changed the subject. I managed to rehome it with a lovely lady who spoilt it rotten so a happy ending for all.

The chip on a dog is not legal. It does not prove ownership at all. Just contact details of someone involved with the dog.

No idea what to do in this situation though but I would try and get dog removed asap.

Third party takes dog and tells dementia relative that dog got loose and was hit by a car.

Third petty arranges a fake cremation and takes around a pot with black pepper in it that are the ashes for the relative to keep.

Dog is fed, cared and loved and exercised by you.

Party not petty.

That’s really interesting about changing the chip. I tried years ago, but couldn’t. I took a Mumsnet dog in an emergency. It was only meant to be a foster but he’s still here several years later. The vet has done all treatment but was a bit funny about neutering someone else’s dog, so he is still entire.

OP hasn’t someone else eyeballed the dog? Could they contact the RSPCA? How very sad. The whole situation. I agree with creating a story somehow. We used to do that with my mil. We took part of her car’s engine out so it wouldn’t start and kept telling her we’d booked it in to get repaired next week, because she wouldn’t accept that she couldn’t drive safely.

Thanks everyone. Well due to a whole load of other nonsense the third parties have just pulled out.

There is a lot of other stuff that I don't want to share but I will report to adult safeguarding and leave it at that. If the dog can come to me without me being heavily involved in the process I will take it/support it going to a rehoming team, but if not I can't do very much more.

Devastated for the dog. But the whole thing is one long eff up that has spanned decades and this is just the latest line in a series of disasters. 😭

I'd honestly just get the dog when you can OP.

I could've told you the RSPCA willl do sweet FA, unfortunately. The police won't care either.

I've had a chip changed over before, it wasn't a problem. You could call some local vets and explain but really I can only think that would cause an issue if the dog escaped and was returned to the owner of the chip by the dog warden-and dog wardens are like gold dust now.

I can't access the dog without third party support. Adult social care won't step in either.

Stuffed.