Removing a dog from an elderly relative

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Can anyone advise on what the legal position is for "removing" a dog from an elderly relative that isn't remembering to feed it?

Short version of key points - Relative has dementia, but is in denial. Was recently assessed as having mental capacity by GP and Social Services. Really needs a dog walker / home help type support but is adamantly refusing to accept any assistance.

Fast forward a month and the rate of deterioration has accelerated and we need to (a) get the dog out while we sort out immediate crisis and (b) try and get the relative to sign the dog over to us on a long term / permanent basis. It is now becoming a welfare issue for both the dog and the relative.

For the sake of not drip feeding too, the relative in question has a long history of mental health issues and a personality disorder, and they despise us so, although we are the best placed to take the dog, we don't have the option of reasoning with the relative. Consequently we are having to do this through third parties who seem to think that they can just turn up at the house today and take the dog on a walk and drop it at our house. My concern is that if said elderly relative has a lucid/ malicious moment we could end up with the Police on our doorstep. Also, I think this approach will be super distressing for the person in question.

Any advice most gratefully received! We just want to do the right thing here.

RSPCA will almost certainly be entirely useless.

As @JohnPrescottsPyjamas says, the Animal Welfare Act is probably your best guide. If you can lay hands on the dog, or someone else can, take it home with you.

ETA, I'm sorry you're in this situation. Dealing with someone with dementia is incredibly draining and difficult.

Can you talk to a sympathetic neighbour and see if they can help?

Have you tried the Cinnamon Trust? They might have someone in the area who can help with the dog. https://cinnamon.org.uk/cinnamon-trust/

The relative won't countenance the Cinnamon Trust. We have tried everything to keep the dog with them. It is removal now or not at all.

Neighbours won't have anything to do with them. This is not a pleasant situation for anyone to step into.

I always feel a bit sorry for the RSPCA on threads like this - regardless of what people think of them as an organisation, they have to work within the law which massively restricts what they're able to do

@jostuki this made me laugh. To be fair the third parties are pretty petty at times.

Thanks for the unintentional cheer up.

Yes this wasn't my intention. To be fair to them they get so many call outs to animals supposedly in distress and frequently there is not a lot they can do, that they have to attempt to filter out potentially malicious or unnecessary calls.

What's the house and garden set up?

Is there any chance of a covert operation to nab the dog whilst it's out in the garden whilst someone else makes a distraction call to her front door?

That poor dog needs help.

Alternately if you are nearby can you put food through the letterbox when the relative is asleep at night if you know the dog is roaming freely in the house?

How horribly distressing for you!

The RSPCA, regardless of it's name or the impression it likes to give to people, has no legal powers to confiscate a dog. They can investigate, and bring a private prosecution, but they need the police on board for the power to seize an animal. They generally don't go to the trouble of investigating and asking the police for intervention for one dog in a hard to prove situation.

You definitely should not (cough cough) do something illegal like stealing the dog, although that's likely the dog's best chance to actually be out of the situation and thriving. What a shame it would be if the dog escaped one day because the relative with dementia left a door and a gate open.

Vets and charities may or may not scan a microchip. If you have the same surname as the owner I'd probably see if they will just let you bring the dog in for treatment on behalf of your relative. If you're paying and you explain the dog is owned by your mum (or whoever) with dementia, it's not going to look to the vet like you're trying to steal the dog, you're just looking after it for a relative, and they're unlikely to ask questions. If you do end up with the dog in your care, I'd personally think that while relative has capacity (at least in the eyes of the law) I'd not try to change the microchip, just have tags on all collars and harnesses with your details on.

One thing it sounds like you should do and is legal, is to hassle SS to update their capacity assessment. I'd also try raising it through their local safeguarding MASH hub as a safeguarding issue (the knock on effects of their lack of capacity, not the dog's welfare). Frankly, I'd like if I had to, about things I'd witnessed them doing that were of concern about them. Getting them assessed as lacking in capacity is going to be key to a lot of things.

Good luck.

Middle of a very cold winter, many years ago:
Me: Hello RSPCA, my neighbour is leaving an elderly cat outside at night in the freezing cold with no shelter. Can you intervene in any way?
RSPCA: Give us your name and address so we can log your call.
Me: < provides info> Now, about the cat...
RSPCA: Shelter... box... daytime?
Me: No shelter. Sometimes left on the doorstep in the daytime. Cries all night on the doorstep. Can you at least call by? Send them something? I can give you their address.
RSPCA: <lots of waffle and fobbing off about how they couldn't really do anything>

A few weeks passed by, during which a friend noticed the cat being left outside and offered to give her a home. I spoke to the bloke myself, saying, as tactfully as I could, that the friend would be happy to adopt the cat. I got a gobful of abuse.

A letter arrived from the RSPCA, asking me for money to help them in their terribly important work.

It was screwed up and chucked in the bin and I've never given a penny to the RSPCA since.

In retrospect, I should just have taken the cat in one night and delivered her to the local Blue Cross as a stray.

Again, thank you. Lots of lovely comments on here and I was expecting to be shot down. I have done all I can this week to make sure all the relevant authorities are aware and apparently one of the third parties has had a guilt trip and will go over later to check on the dog and make sure it is fed. We watch and wait.

It goes without saying, I don't know you , your elderly relative, her dog, the situation or the history. However you've provided some information and are asking for help from Mumsnetters in deciding how to do the right thing. So I will offer response, based on the little information I have, and how it seems to me, with all of the above caveats.

It seems to me that your elderly relative could use some really good support from people who truly have her best interests at heart, will truly listen to how she is, and what - if anything - she could use some help with, someone who will offer support on her terms.

NHS website says dementia affects people differently, progresses differently, and with the right support people with dementia can often continue to live their normal lives independently for many years. Many people can do the same with poor mental health and personality disorders. None of these conditions automatically preclude people from taking good care of a dog.

You say your relative is forgetting to feed the dog. You also say you have t seen the dog, or your relative, that your relative no longer likes you, won't discuss situation with you and won't llet you in. So it seems you may not have first hand knowledge of how dog is treated. There's also a sliding scale of 'forgetting to feed the dog' from the normal hustle and bustle of family life where adult teen forgets one lunchtime, to a dog who used to be fed 3 meals a day and now gets those meals at different times or now gets 2 larger meals etc right up to missing meals in a way that affects dogs weight. You've not given enough information to to say what's going on. However it seems that a reliable system of reminders and perhaps repeat deliveries of dog food and regular drop ins could help solve that completely.

The facts seem to be that your relative has been recently assessed by professionals as having capacity to make her own decisions. Social services and her GP have been involved. You dont seem to be directly involved but can raise your concerns through these channels.

It seems to me like your relative needs true friends who will be there for her and support her to live well as she wishes and within her capabilities. I hope if I ever find myself in that situation I'll have that, and if I can't have that that I can rely on social care and health services to support me within law, respecting my wishes and capabilities and offering me help if I need it - true help - in applying for funding, getting dog walkers, support at home if wanted, equipment I need for reminders etc.

I would say, since you asked, try to be there for her and her household, which includes her dog. If you cant for whatever reason - be that due to old animosities, your unwillingness, or hers, simply try to ensure she continues to recieve whatever support she needs from health and social care services. There is a lot of great support available for her to access for this situation, to support her remaining happily and well at home, living her way.

The dog's wellbeing matters a great deal of course. It sounds like your relative may be doing her best and may need support to do better, the way she used to. The dog is her family - who knows, perhaps her only true friend -ensuring your relatives wellbeing may be the best way to ensure his.

Please do not try to trick her out of her dog. Help her. Or let those who will help her - including health and social care services - do that.

@marketthyme I don't disagree with anything you have written. But unfortunately this is not a simple case of "being there" for them from my perspective. There is a long history of abusive behaviour and it is simply not physically safe for me to be there. The third parties were supposed to be doing all of this but have backed out as the behaviour is so challenging they no longer want to be involved due to their own health issues and life circumstances.

Formal services have been notified from a safeguarding perspective (again) and hopefully the relative will - this time - accept formal support to keep the dog at home. To date, they have thrown people out of their home for even suggesting additional external support, and offering to help. Last time social care team went round apparently they refused to open the door.

At no point have I said I want to "trick" the dog from the individual. This is what the third parties want to do. But I have put my foot down today based on the discussion on this thread which has been incredibly helpful. I will willingly take the dog on, if the process is carried out properly. Or if the situation escalates to the point where it needs to be taken off for formal welfare. But I cannot and will not engage with the individual in question and as they live on their own, are refusing support and access unless someone happens to be round for a specific reason I simply can't answer your questions re: routine etc.

Dementia is an awful condition. Dementia and underlying MH issues and a personality disorder make it almost unmanageable. The poor dog is in the middle of this. But rest assured I won't (a) put myself in a position where I am either at risk of breaking the law or (b) not consider the wider picture and implications.

Thanks to everyone for their insights today. It has helped navigate a very difficult situation and we are now waiting to see the outcome of the safeguarding alert.

It sounds like a very challenging situation with challenging behaviour which you understand best based on your experiences. I acknowledge that you didn't say you wanted to trick your relative out of her dog, sorry if that sounded blunt.. Sounds like youre trying to find the 'right path' through a very complex maze. And that youre gradually reaching your own decisions on best way forward. I hope things work out well for everyone involved, including you, your relative and her dog. Best wishes.

I hope you find a solution. It's hard enough looking after someone with dementia, but you're really up against here.

I remember my MIL, who had Alzheimers, somehow acquired a cat which went on to have kittens. She was always surprised when the kittens popped out and could never work out where they came from.

All I'm going to say again is that I have a batshit family and all the wishy washy stuff doesn't really work when the rubber hits the road and they're kicking off.

People may have good intentions when they write posts but their experience of dementia on top of poor MH and history of abuse must have been different and their lens, whilst well meaning, is unhelpful.

All the best.

100% agree.

The first thing that goes with dementia is logic. You just can’t reason or point out the obvious with a sufferer. Understandably, because they are often aware something is not right, they get extremely defensive and often aggressive because they perceive you are the one trying to tell them or make them do something they don’t want to.

All you can do is agree and avoid direct confrontation. If you want compliance, sometimes you need to tell ‘love lies’ - that an arrangement is just temporary, that the dog is just going for walk etc.

My mother, for her own safety, needed to go into a care home, but there was absolutely no way she would have agreed and got extremely aggressive when I tried to explain this to her. In the end, I told her we were going out to meet some friends, which she happily agreed to. I didn’t feel great about deceiving her, but to have left her was just an accident waiting to happen. She also had a long history of MH issues and NPD so dementia just brought her behavioural issues even more to the fore.

get proof from GP of the dementia
contact local dog warden at council
get help from the vet involved
get a local dog shelter to help you RSPCA or Blue Cross not too brilliant at helping you
if they are in social housing maybe involve them as if the dog is not walked it may be soiling in the house so they would order the dog to be removed

Report via 101 first online, get a reference number. Then you've covered all bases