Puppy Survival Thread for New and Old Pups - here comes winter 2024

[Bupster]

I thought I might as well be the one to start the new thread! Nothing to report but a sleepy puppy over here.

Oh, I'm so sorry @JessiesHuman It's very hard. I lost my Mum three weeks ago and the amount of stuff there is to deal with has been mentally exhausting.

Having Zeus will indeed be a great comfort to you in the coming days. It's good to hear that he is adjusting so well to being alone for short periods.

Thanks @YorkshireFelix. Am still in shock to be honest.

So sorry for your loss @PyreneanAubrie it's so hard, sending love to you and your family.

It feels so daunting and overwhelming at a point that you're the least capable of dealing with things. I have to organise the funeral, the wake the sale of her house. OMG it feels too much. Thank God I have zeus to cuddle. Though to be fair, even the cat has sensed something is wrong and is being more affectionate than normal.

Very sorry @JessiesHuman losing your mum is so hard I know.

@JessiesHuman Oh no, I'm so sorry. Bless you, and bless Zeus for understanding – they definitely know in their funny little way. I hope both he and the cat are giving you lots of love – and lots of love from us too x

Tearing my hair out this morning – not because of our Golden Retriever puppy, who is doing great, but because of the bombardment of conflicting advice! It's like having a newborn baby again with people chipping in about Gina Ford/attachment parenting/feeding on demand etc!

Today's topic for debate is harness versus collar for loose lead walking. We've always thought a harness was a given but our breeder and their breeder (if that makes sense) are telling us that Golden Retrievers don't need them and we should train using lead on collar. I know big name trainers like Steve Mann and Ben Randall also say you should be aiming for collar alone and that the key is training, training, training and harnesses can encourage pulling even more.

I definitely want to nail loose leading training but am feeling under pressure to do what breeders are suggesting (we're in FB group with them) when I'm nervous about using collar alone. I know posting here might muddy my thoughts even further but I'm just feeling so torn.

So sorry for your losses @PyreneanAubrie and @JessiesHuman. Sympathies to you and your families.

I struggled a lot at the start with information overload. It's so hard to know what to do for the best.

Our breeder was very anti-harness but Vinny doesn't seem to give two shits about being choked pulling on his collar, and I was so worried about doing some damage to his throat. We use the harness most of the time as it has a little grab handle on the back and it gives me peace of mind when he's off lead. But I do sometimes just clip the lead to his collar if I feel like he might decide to walk nicely (not very often, I will admit).

Sometimes he seems to pull less on his collar and I think we are making progress then the next time he pulls like a train. We have been working on heel/loose lead walking since he was really small (now almost 5 months) but it's really difficult when he's overexcited about being outside and he forgets anything I've ever taught him.

Sorry I know this isn't helpful at all as we're kind of in the same boat. I'd just do what works best for you at the time. You could always have the harness on but clip the lead to the collar, and then change it to clip to the harness if you're struggling - that's what we do sometimes

@DowntonNabby At the risk of adding to your information overload, and I’ve got a spaniel not a Goldie, I genuinely found that my pup’s lead walking (which is still a work in progress at nearly 18 months) was better on a collar not a harness. Like @YorkshireFelix when she was little I did appreciate how easy the harness was to grab, but now I rarely need to grab her so it’s ok.

My gundog trainer advocates slip leads above all else but I didn’t want to do that to start with (though I regret not doing so now) so I’ve stuck to collar and lead and while her walking isn’t perfect it is fine on a collar. And fine will do me most of the time, not least as she's 12kg. I only use a harness now when I use a long-line, which is rare these days. I remember feeling just as overloaded – we are def all in the same boat being told what you 'should' and 'shouldn't' do and it’s just down to what works for you and your demon.

You have no idea how helpful this actually is to read! It's actually good to know I'm not the only one whose head is spinning from it all! I've just tried to do some on-lead training in the garden which was so frustrating because she just wanted to bite the lead like it was a toy. But I kept saying drop and rewarding her every time she did then stopped after five mins so not to over egg it. But bloody hell, it takes the patience of a saint!!

This is so helpful too! We really do want to persist with collar and lead only. Why do you regret not getting a slip lead sooner?

And thank you for sharing that you felt overloaded too, I appreciate the solidarity. It's starting to feel like puppy training has become a massive money-making industry that thrives on conflicting advice!!

I've gone for harness only and not regretted it. There's a load of stuff on the DTAS website about how delicate dog throats really are and I couldn't bear the idea of hurting Bill. I don't even like using the training lead that clips to the front and the top of the harness (which I only learned how to use properly this morning 🙄) because it works by turning him against his will. I also use the long line a lot to allow him freedom to sniff, and you can only use a harness with those.

I think it really depends on the dog, and on your personal feelings. Bill pulls, and probably always will a bit, as he has a spaniel nose and always wants to sniff, Labrador weight and strength, and isn't great at self-regulating. But I don't walk him on pavements very much, so I'm happy to use a training lead for the moment while we work on loose lead walking. I have a friend who had to walk with sticks for a while and she put her puppy on a collar only for a while, because she couldn't afford to have him pull at all.

@DowntonNabby I honestly wish I'd started her on a sliplead from day one and (though it's hard) so she never learned to pull, and that a tiny bit of pressure from the slip meant come back to heel and walk nicely. As it is I missed the boat. I could start again now, I know, but the pulling skill has already been acquired. By contrast though she walks nice and slowly with a loose lead stopping to sniff gently without yanking me and so though it's not perfect I'll take it because she's being enriched by her environment more than she would be walking to heel (or heel-ish) on a sliplead next to me.

I always think that you can only train the dog in front of you, so not to worry too much about other people say and do as long as it works for you.

I honestly wish I'd started her on a sliplead from day one and (though it's hard) so she never learned to pull, and that a tiny bit of pressure from the slip meant come back to heel and walk nicely

I think that's wishful thinking, plenty of pups will just choke themselves on a slip lead. Dogs learn loose lead walking through training not equipment.

I tried V with a slip lead from the off and he didn't care about choking himself, so I stopped as I was worried about damage. But I've seen lots of people who have managed from day 1. I think I probably didn't have the technique right to use it properly (not sure I still would now!). I'd like to try again with it though so might speak to our trainer and see what she suggests.

We've just had a pretty good walk with not as much pulling as usual which was nice! When we get near the field where I let him off he just drags me there though 😬 And he's recently discovered that birds and squirrels exist so I think I'm going to have to stop walking him off lead in the woods and have him somewhere else on the long line to stop him chasing. Which is a shame as we love walking in the woods but he flies off like a shot and won't return until whatever he's chasing is out of sight. His recall is good otherwise, but as soon as he spots something his ears turn off!

Do you have any advice regarding the training? Any tips gratefully received!

Perhaps it is wishful thinking, but I know a lot of dogs (personally) where it has worked and they walk beautifully, so for me it's a missed opportunity. I wish I'd put the effort in early on and known how to – I will with my next pup, for sure.

No magic tips I'm afraid, consistency and waiting for pups to grow up a bit. Main thing is not to let them rehearse pulling, if they pull to get to e.g. a good sniff and get there then pulling becomes self rewarding. Huge amounts of patience and eventually it just comes together and you realize you've had an on lead walk without wanting to cry 😂

The technique is exactly why I didn't commit to it to start with and I regret it now. I was scared of using a slip wrong and didn't want to hurt her as I see so many people doing it wrong. If I'd known 14 months ago what I know now, and if I'd trained her as a baby with the dogs we train with and know now, I'd have done a lot of things differently. You live and learn, eh.

But it so depends on what you want them to do, as we've all discussed here before. As lovely as a loose lead walk on a sliplead is, with no sniffing and just heeling – and I really admire it, done properly and without putting pressure on the dog – I also want her to be able to take in some sniffs while on lead if it's appropriate, if she wants, and without pulling me. So it's swings and roundabouts.

I couldn't bear not to go to our various local woods so I wonder if you could turn around what they mean for him – they're not a place to run and chase but a place to hunt? Chuck some balls/dummies etc about and get him working next to you rather than going self-employed?

Would you stop still each time they pull and then walk again when they stop? Totally get the self rewarding thing. Mine just wants to sniff and sniff and he pulls the most when he wants to have his nose down to the ground. I don't mind him having a sniffy walk but not when he's pulling like a freight train!

What did you do when they did (invariably) pull? And when you say let them grow up a bit, what age are you talking and what was your approach before they reached that age?

Okay, I'm going to give my two penn'orth about equipment for difficult pups. It may or may not be relevant.

A lot of it is down to the size and strength of your dog as an adult. I suspect that @DowntonNabby has what will be the biggest dog here after Brie and possibly Libi...

I used a harness a few times when Brie was little; mainly for my own peace of mind, but I used it in conjunction with an Ezy dog double up collar and a double ended training lead. That was great because the training lead had a handle at both ends, thus one was next to the collar and one next to the harness. It did give me stability and reassurance in traffic or when encountering prams, small children etc. where it was imperative that puppy did not jump up. However, the harness seemed to be impeding her shoulder movement so I put it aside by the time she was 5 or 6 months.

Interestingly, when we got our previous two pups, both male, their breeders were 100% against the use of a harness - reason being that with a strong dog, it just aids their pulling power. Hence, recommendations of conventional neck collars or headcollars. Obviously a headcollar is not recommended for a puppy under 9 or 10 months so I have not tried it on Brie. We had a Dogmatic headcollar for Algy (who was huge). We found it gave good control for pavement walks on dark evenings, particularly if it was wet or snowy and slippy underfoot. Most of the time he was walked on conventional webbing collar and lead.

I won't use a slip lead because I don't have confidence in them. We've used them in the showring and one of our girls was adept at getting out of them. They also tighten too much with a hard puller and can damage the trachea. I'll be told that I am wrong by 25 people now but none of them will have a LGD, so 😛My husband is not averse to putting a half-check/martingale collar on Brie occasionally but I don't like it. In any case, they wreck the coat.

Miss Fat Arse is 7 months old and weighs 38kg - she can also be a demon puller. I'm on an Ezydog Double-up collar and a 5 foot webbing lead with a heavy duty trigger hook, if that's any help to anyone with a big strong dog. I think I have more faith in that set up than anything else, the lead gives me enough length for field walking but is not too long for pavement control. I always use both hands on the lead because I'm diddy and pup is massive.

Ironically, this afternoon she walked brilliantly for me and didn't pull at all (yay), but there were no little kids and no big dogs and that's generally when she gives me issues. She just absolutely adores small children and wants to make friends with most dogs.

Hope this is of interest in some way or other 😊

@brushingboots Yes I totally get what you mean! I've seen a few people on tiktok or YouTube who are on their second pups and have said similar about 'if I knew then what I knew now.' I guess it's just a good excuse for you to get her a brother or sister 🤣

I'll try with his dummy or ball. I usually do two or three retrieves on the field before we go into the woods but he gets bored of them very quickly (which is why I only do a couple). He even dropped the dummy to chase a bird on the field earlier 🙄 I was keen on getting a rabbit skin one but the trainer said not to get one yet because they will be really high value for him. But if he's not arsed about a canvas dummy then maybe higher value would be a good thing? I honestly don't know.

@AubrieDog 38kg just blows my mind 🤣 I can't even comprehend her size compared to Vinny! I'd love to see all the pups together, it would be so funny.

But I agree, V is only 11.5kg so what might work for us might not work for you @DowntonNabby

Definitely of interest, thank you! Our girl will end up being a big dog so the Ezy double collar is definitely worth us investigating along with the webbing lead, thanks for the tip. I like the idea of using both alongside the harness in these early days – she only had her first walk outside at the weekend. But our breeder and their breeder are being so militant about no harness I guessed it didn't hurt to explore other ways as soon as possible.