Designer Doodles - A Discussion Thread

[Killingoffmyflowersonebyone]

Breed recommendation/discussion threads always end up as arguments between those of us who have been around long enough, worked in animal care, have a genuine passion for breeding and/or just love dogs, and those who want some form of designer doodles.

So, this is my attempt to create a thread where we can actually have a reasonable discussion on these dogs and we can point prospective buyers to a reasoned debate thread without hijacking their existing thread. Probably naive of me! But hey.

From my perspective, I find designer breeding to be dangerous, disingenuous and unethical. I have no issue with designer doodles when it is done properly. But I do take issue with people who buy them without realising the significant risks they are running and without doing their research;

Hypoallergenic: No dog is truly hypoallergenic. Doodle crosses go wrong in this instance as often as they go right. This means puppies are dumped often because of allergy issues.

Personality: Particular breeds have particular traits (springers are typically high energy, golden retrievers are very affectionate and loyal, Grey Hounds have high prey drives, GSDs have protective instincts etc etc). There are exceptions to the rule. But typically, these traits cannot be easily removed. Breeding doodle crosses does not mean you will end up with the best of both and you should always consider worst case scenario - what if you end up with the energy of both breeds and the extreme SA that, for example, cockers and poodles are prone to?

Health: Breeding two pedigree dogs from different breeds does not equate to a healthier dog. All breeds are predisposed to genetic and physical conditions. Just because health tests have been done does not mean the puppies will be healthy. That is why we work off EBV - which is only done with dogs within a breed. Labrador’s and Poodles both are prone to hip dysplasia, but you won’t find an EBV on a puppy and just because the parents are clear does not mean there will not be historical issues - which is why the KC is useful. Poodles and the breeds they are crossed with have a variety of (serious and expensive) health conditions - and some are inherent in both dogs, including PRA.

Farming: Very often (but not always) doodle designer breeders are unethical. They are often fronts for puppy farming and dump the bitches when they can no longer be bred from. They set themselves up as proper breeders, but they are not and typically people who buy from them are won over by a snappy website and confirmation of health tests. Buyers don’t ask the important questions; what happens to the bitch when she can’t be bred from, how many litters a year, how many litters in a lifetime, how many other dogs do you have, why do you breed. The breeders often do not properly vet their owners; they are, IME, more likely to sell to inappropriate families (spelling disaster for dog and owner alike) than a proper breeder.

I love cockerpoos - I’m currently fostering two puppies and their cocker spaniel mother (dumped whilst nursing), so maybe I am a bit bias. As a mongrel mix they are lovely; but they are a mongrel and they come with their own physical and personal a characteristics that are inherent in the breeds they are from, just as a GSD or a Flat Coat does, and I think too many people fail to realise that and are taken in by the disinformation about their personalities, their cute looks, health and hypoallergenic coats.

Of course the KC is not the be all and end all - and I have as many issues with it as the next person - but buying designer mongrel in the hope of getting a particular characteristic is naive and foolhardy. I’d welcome views from others - and reasoned debate, not simply naysaying and saying your own dog is perfect, because that’s your dog not the ‘breed’ as a whole - on why they worry about designer doodles or why they don’t.

Point taken. I am guilty of hijacking their thread. I will go back and apologise.

The purebred debate is a particularly sensitive subject with me at the moment since half my family no longer speaks to me because I opted for a pedigree puppy again. No, my breed is not the best, no I wouldn't recommend it to anyone but it suits me and my lifestyle. But still people think they have the right to tell me I should have got a mongrel because they're healthier 😢I don't remember being lectured so much with past puppies. If I'm honest it has made me really miserable lately.

Anyway, I probably have nothing sensible to contribute here but I will follow the discussion with interest. Thank you for starting the thread.

@Pyreneansylvie definitely not calling anyone out! I just want people to actually discuss the issues and actually accept various POV about designer doodles - both sides have justifiable frustrations but never express them well on threads!

And don’t let anyone shame you for your pedigree (assuming it’s a Pyrenean - they are lovely and I would 100% have one if I had the space)! Every dog breed has its pros and cons, and we should be able to discuss them 😊

I’m not keen on designer doodles, I don’t see the point because you cannot guarantee that the pups will have the best of both parents.
I see a young labradoodle whose owner has been surprised, and concerned, by his size and strength. Owner does seem to care properly for the dog though. A standard poodle crossed with a Labrador is very likely to be a lively puppy who will grow to be big and strong.
I agree re unscrupulous breeders cashing in on popular breeds and their lack of care for sire and dam.
Many of the cockerpoos I regularly see are skittish and anxious, frequently never let off lead. Whether this is down to inexperienced owners or breeding I’m not sure, a bit of both probably. They are incredibly cute but not likely to calmly train themselves and the smaller ones are possibly not dumped because their size makes them manageable.

@Killingoffmyflowersonebyone

Thank you. Pyrenean, yes, my eighth PMD, she came from a reputable breeder, parents health checked, hip and elbow scored etc. We always do our research. We had three together for many years, two together subsequently, have shown occasionally but never bred. Pretty clued up on bloodlines and health issues etc. Fascinated by LGD's in general despite them not being the easiest dogs to live with!

Always interested to learn about other breeds so will definitely be following.

Like any breeding it’s responsible and ethical if all the health checks are done prior to breeding, temperaments are matched, the COI is taken into account and the homes vetted and the owners knowing what they are getting into with working breeds. It doesn’t matter poodle cross or collie cross or whatever.

I know doodles from breeders that have done this. They are delightful dogs. There is poor breeding in all breeds. I’ve seen it.

For disclosure I have had two rescue mongrels. I now have a pedigree from what I consider a good breeder only because rescue was not an option this time.

Good thread OP - all I will say is the doodles, which were originally created by the Guide Dogs and Hearing Dogs to produce dogs to be used for people with allergies to shedding coats, is perfectly acceptable to me. They are health tested and genetically they know non-shedding is not guaranteed.

I know many people have wonderful doodle pets but I think they should only be produced for the use in my first paragraph.

I have a designer mongrel, poodle mix pup. I didn’t buy him for status or anything really, he picture just spoke to me.

He's from a council licensed breeder, once his mum is too old to breed she lives with the family until she dies. He’s health checked, fit and healthy.

I didn’t buy him for any believed breed qualities, I’ll just work round the dog’s personality that appears and it’s until death do we part here!

I don't know much about these crossbreeds (the ones I've met all seem to be nice, if on the daft side) but a vet I know told me the poodle crosses constituted a lot of his small animal work because they tended to be very prone to skin problems. I'd never heard that mentioned before, maybe another factor to consider?

I have a doodle. I get so wound up with all the sneering and hate for them on here. People can't wait to point out your dog isn't a "breed" and it's a mongrel. Actually they're not mongrels, they're cross breeds. A mongrel is a dog with many or unknown breeds. All dogs were cross bred at some point obviously.

There are fewer reputable breeders of poodle crosses, it's true. Hopefully that's changing as their popularity increases. I know of an amazing breeder. Her bitches (golden retrievers) all come from amazing lines. Her poodle stud does too. Obviously all health tested and puppies come with a family tree. They're fed the best food and where they're raised is amazing, like a kindergarten for pups! The breeder does rehome her bitches after she's finished breeding them, but I guess that's usual for a proper breeder otherwise they'd end up with a ridiculous amount of dogs. It actually works well as these calm, gentle, immaculately trained adult golden retrievers often go to older couples who receive a perfect dog without the tiring puppy years!

I chose my cross breed as I adore golden retrievers, but not the endless moulting and I wanted a dog a bit more robust than a poodle. I admit I wanted her to look a certain way but I guess that's why a lot of people go for certain breeds/colours of dogs. I researched for years before I got my pup and spent a year looking at various litters before I chose her. Of most importance to me was that her parents had been health checked and hip/elbow scored. As OP rightly says, this doesn't guarantee a healthy pup as generations can be skipped but I went back as far as was possible. I had researched coat types and size etc, so that also affected my choice.

Perhaps I've been lucky or maybe my research paid off as I've ended up with the dog I dreamed of! She's solid like a GR and has the personality of one too and is huge and shaggy! She did shed but not sure if that was her losing her puppy coat or getting rid of her winter one but it's not constant. The only bad point about her is constantly getting stopped to ask what breed she is!

It does make me laugh that so many on here like to mention that every doodle they've ever met is neurotic and unpredictable as I can't believe that's true or perhaps they just don't notice the well behaved ones. So many of them are used as therapy dogs for their calm and laid back nature.

@CellophaneFlower

Sneering and hate on MN isn't just reserved for poos and doodles, it is much broader than that. I only started posting on MN weeks after I got my puppy because I'd already seen discrimination, spite and ridicule on dog threads.

There is loads of hate against pedigree dogs on MN. Loads. If you say you want a specific breed - even if you've owned that breed for 50 years, you still get people telling you "Adopt, Don't Shop" and lecturing you about how immoral it is to buy a purebred dog when you could adopt a rescue. They argue that mongrels are healthier and tell you every single pedigree dog on the planet is inbred with multiple genetic defects... Or you say you want a St Bernard and someone will always say "Why don't you consider a Cavachon instead? I've got one and he's the perfect family pet".

Then there's the big-dog hate. The people who rabbit on about how all big powerful dogs should be muzzled in public/banned from sale/kept away from children. They insist that "nobody needs a dog bigger than a Labrador" or, more often, "If you want a big dog, get a Golden Retriever" as if these are 100% trouble free and the answer to everyone's problems. There is a huge amount of big dog hate here, trust me on that.

The reason that so much scorn is directed at poos and doodles is that they seem to heavily outnumber other types of dog at the moment. Nobody is saying they are all bad but the simple fact that they are so numerous, particularly in the post-covid years means that a lot of them have problems.

Clearly your doodle is a first generation crossbreed with sound temperament, but an awful lot of these designer dogs - particularly the cockerpoos - are actually mongrels with any pedigree health-checked dog further back in the lineage. Many of them are from back-street-breeders or puppy farms and have very dubious breeding, they are not first generation crossbreeds like your doodle.

Personally, I would still always choose a purebred dog because I know exactly what I am going to get but I'm a one-breed person anyway.

There are some massive ''Doodles'' about that have zero manners , and very, very greedy.
Big bodied with tiny eyes but a nose that can smell another dog's treat at 100 metres.

I blame the owners for not training them.

No dog comes ready trained, and it's shocking how many owners just don't seem to bother with even rudimentary training.

''Soreeeee''' just doesn't cut it. Train your glutton to come back to you.

Rant over!

Mine isn't a first gen. Her mum is a goldendoodle and dad is a goldendoodle x labradoodle.

I think often the pedigree hate is thrown back after a jibe at a poodle cross. Many people like to spout that pedigree breeders do it for the love of the breed and protecting the lines, when it's simply not true. A lot of breeds do have awful health issues now, they're just too inbred.

I don't have big dog hate but I will speak out against certain breeds that I don't think belong in homes. Any dog can bite obviously, but not many have the ability to maul someone to death.

I think it's the generalisation about poodle crosses on here that gets me so much. A lot are just unwilling to accept there can be responsible breeders out there. Not many other cross breeds seem to get people's backs up as much as when anything oodle is mentioned. I do get some crossbreeds are a recipe for disaster but mixing most common breeds with a poodle isn't going to end up in a frankenstein dog. Somebody posted the other day on here and listed the temperaments of a poodle and I think a labrador, as practically the same and then went on to say "so imagine if you get the worst of both breeds?". It made no sense! They are just hellbent on painting all poodle crosses as the most irresponsible thing in the world without having a credible argument (bar the terrible breeders, which are prevalent in all breeds).

Why have you started an entire thread just to kick people who prefer a crossbreed?

It’s not that at all. It to have an actual debate. If you’re not capable of that, then just leave the thread.

I don't have a dog at present so am interested in the debate but from the OP it doesn't sound as though you're very likely to be persuaded about doodles!

I saw a beautiful Lurcher puppy in Covid era - Blue and white.

She looked to be about 16 weeks old.

I complimented the owner on his beautiful Lurcher, and he said ''she's not a Lurcher {he'd never heard of one} but a Labradoodle.

He literally had been sold a pup. He'd paid a lot. {undisclosed}

The elongated head, the large luminous eyes, above a clean sculptural face the rose ears, long limbs and whip like tail and linty fur was classic lurcher, and a beauty at that.

I just hope he kept her when her Lurcheryness was noticed by others.

@CellophaneFlower - I think you've posted about your dog before, so glad you found your way here - because you seem to be someone who actually did all the research before you chose your dog. You didn't pick it solely based off looks or some snappy puppy-farm website and you made sure you had health tests for the parents etc; but so many people don't.

A lovely doodle is a thing of beauty; they can have the best parts of both breeds.
But the problem is it isn't a guarantee; not in the same way pedigree breeding a GSD or a Golden or a Pyrenees is. With a pedigree you can be reasonably confident that your dog with have specific characteristics but with cross-breeding you take the risk that it can go wrong - and when it does, it goes very wrong.

Of the last 10 dogs I've fostered, eight have been ex-breeding spaniel bitches (dumped when they couldn't breed anymore and several of them with cockerpoo puppies) and two were cockerpoos that were seriously sick. And when I was a vet, about 75% of all dogs bought to me for medication for 'behavioural issues' were doodle mixes...and I cannot help but think it's because people under-estimated the 'breed' and were taken in by the promise of hypoallergenic, calm teddy-bears.

I think the thing for me is I don't understand why people - particularly with children - take the risk when they would be taking less of a risk getting a bog standard poodle.

IMO poodle crosses aren’t ethically bred, there aren’t any responsible breeders.

Most dogs aren’t ethically bred full stop, but with a pedigree if you look hard enough you’ll find a responsible breeder, that isn’t the case with poodle crosses - they have nothing to prove them in, there’s no reason to breed them other than money.

Dogs shouldn’t be a product, but people settle for the bare minimum of health testing and not mistreated - that’s a general issue not specific to poodle crosses, but that’s literally the best breeder you’ll find with poodle crosses.

There is a new cross that worries me greatly. Pyredoodle. They're being marketed as a cute teddy bear dog 😰when the truth is that they have the potential to be far from that. Any thoughts on this one please @Killingoffmyflowersonebyone ?

The Pyrenean is a very specialised breed. It's a Livestock Guarding breed. A guard dog ffs and they cross it with a poodle. Why? Because it looks cute, there can be no other reason. LGD have been bred to have a low prey drive in order to be safe around livestock - this is an important factor. It is highly dangerous to cross a gigantic guarding breed with any breed that has a higher prey drive. It is just an accident waiting to happen.

PMD is a breed with immense strength in body and mind. They are independent and rarely work to command, they have no recall whatsoever and are great escape artists so you need a 2 metre chain link fence. They also have a very loud, deep bark and really aren't suited to an urban environment. Crossing them with a poodle isn't going to suddenly domesticate a breed that has worked off its own initiative for centuries and turn it into a teddy bear. It worries me.

My female Pyrie is 31kg at 5 months. Yes, she has a stable temperament and is an amiable soul but she is immensely strong and stubborn already. The males are hugely bigger than that so even crossed with a standard poodle it will still be a massive dog. Really, the creators of designer crossbreeds should not be using any sort of guarding breed - they are just too strong and powerful for the average pet owning family and a lot will inevitably end up in rescue with problems by a year old.

So yeah, as a long term, responsible Pyrenean owner I'm stressed about this cross because it's the one that could end up resulting in my beloved breed getting a bad reputation...

@Killingoffmyflowersonebyone
A friend looks after an 'Australian Labradoodle' who is almost blind. {PRA?} she is 15 yrs and very well behaved, never heard her bark once, can't fault her behaviour in any way. {pic when she visited}

However, friend thinks she came from a puppy farm masquerading behind a flashy website.

The owners had to tick a boxes as to what they desired colour wise, size wise and temperament wise - and a few months later, they were contacted with a puppy.

They didn't see the parents.

She was hideously expensive, because she was ''Australian'' {I know the sum, but won't repeat it here}

Friend has known her all her life, and says of all the dogs he looks after, she seems to be the healthiest {eyes apart}

Her owners are wealthy and not the sorts to buy a ''cheap dog'' {his words}

I am a fan of Whippets, and the KC reg ones are all related to one foundation sire {Zuber 1889} which is a bit worrying.

I have never bred any dog, nor would.

Yes, I think you may have been on the cane corso thread!

I was careful, and don't get me wrong, looks were definitely part of my choice, as I stated earlier. I did have my ideal dog in my head and luckily I've ended up with her, but I was fully aware that she might not be as I'd painted her in my head and that was also fine. Actually, not knowing for sure how she'd turn out was actually quite exciting. A bit like not finding out the sex of my last 2 children during pregnancy 😂

I picked breeds that I'd be happy with anyway and that I felt work together. I didn't go for a cockapoo as a cocker spaniel's temperament isn't one I thought would be a good fit but the cockapoos I've met have seemed fine. I was hoping for a laid back dog and mine is pretty chilled.

If I ever do get another dog, I'll go for a smaller one as I couldn't cope with 2 the size of mine. I had a CKC growing up and I love them but wouldn't get a pure bred due to their health issues. I've looked into cavapoos and it does appear they're healthier than their pedigree counterparts. However, they do seem to suffer with separation anxiety and the few I've met on my walks are VERY yappy so I've ruled those out!

@CellophaneFlower

Sorry, my mistake; I thought you said your dog was a doodle, I must have misread your post where you mention a breeder with a Golden Retriever and Poodle.

Any dog has the capability to maul someone to death, even terriers can kill babies. Any dog has the capacity to be dangerous. We have two vets in the family, one of them recently had to PTS a Golden Retriever that had attacked its elderly female owner. In the process, the nurses had to bandage the owners arm and send her to A&E.

Edit - I was on the Cane Corso thread also.

IMO poodle crosses aren’t ethically bred, there aren’t any responsible breeders.

There are. There's just not many. The one I posted about above is amazing. My dog isn't from her and she's not a friend or anything so I'm not biased. Her puppies are expensive and she obviously does profit but she absolutely goes above and beyond for her litters, no expense is spared. There simply wouldn't be any reason for her to go to the lengths she does if money was solely her reason for breeding.

I didn't get my dog from the breeder I mentioned, sorry for the confusion!

The dogs I'm talking about can take down a grown man.

Obviously if you Google hard enough, you'll find a dog attack from any breed and the higher the population of the dog the more likely. I'm guessing there are a lot more golden retrievers in the country than XL bullies, yet they're not killing adults. In fact killer dogs of recent years are almost ALL bull breeds or mastiff types, so it's clear there's an issue.