Puppy passed away from Vaccination

[Holidayhavanas]

Hello

Please I know Cavapoos aren’t the favourite breed on here, but we decided that a cavapoo was a great fit for our family after looking after a friend’s last year. I’m devastated to find out tonight that the puppy that we were planning on bringing home in a few weeks has passed away after her first vaccination. The breeder has said that this has never happened to them before and has offered a refund or to wait for the next litter (whenever that may be). My head is a mess as I’m so upset for the poor pup, I’m also thinking about the DC that were getting so much excited. DH feels he has no trust in breeder ( we did our research now I’m worried about health issues related to breeding?). Would you ask for the refund in this circumstance or wait for next litter?

Have you come across Champdogs OP? No Cavapoos on there but there are some Bichons

@Devilshands thank you for your advice!

I've looked at 'Anna's Perfect Pooches', they may be licensed but they're still a puppy farm without a shadow of a doubt.

So many red flags

so they 'DNA tested for the relevant issues in the breed' but this is a very vague statement, & there's no mention of tests such as those for CM/SM, hips, elbows, PL which require physical examinations.

Happy to stud their dogs out to any breeds- no health testing criteria for the bitches.

Seem to be running a fertility clinic alongside- they seem very happy to AI if needed, when in reality AI should only be used as a last resort, such as bringing in new genetics from dogs in another country.

No pages for their studs & dams with their health test results (so they can be checked on KC or BVA website) & a profile about their temperament & achievements.

So many different breeds & mixes, all of them trendy, moneymaking types yet no mention of any of the parents, it's literally all about the puppies.

Always have litters due & on the ground.

Facebook page with nothing but pictures of cute puppies & puppies with 'satisfied customers' to lure in unsuspecting potential buyers- I don't give a damn about what lovely lives the puppies go on to lead, I care about the dogs bred to death for money.

Not a good breeder at all & I think you really need to do a lot more research before getting a puppy, OP.

@justaboutdonenow don’t worry without your extensive knowledge I could definitely tell it wasn’t right. I have found a lady that has one litter of Cockapoos and one litter of cavapoos a year. She has at least around a six month waiting list. She is obviously licensed. I will ask for health checks for parents etc but she hasn’t any litters at the moment or planned.

I don't know whether you need a log-in to read this, but there are miniature poodles available on ChampDogs: this one caught my eye, but others will know if there are red flags here
https://www.champdogs.co.uk/litter/69868

Get a refund, I know puppies can die but I don't think you need to be using the breeder anymore.

Although the breeder mentioned various health tests she alleges has been done on both parents, only two on dad and three on mum are actually verified…

The breeder has bred for colour and because she (essentially) wants a replacement dog for when her own one dies. That would be put me off. People should breed for temperament. Yes appearances are important in the show world - but wanting a specific colour is (in my personal view) not a good enough reason to breed a dog.

And she’s not tested the bitch for heart related issues.

I’m not a poodle owner…so someone may come along in a minute and shout me down, but those three things alone would put me off massively.

@Devilshands the colour thing in poodles is complex as the original poodles were many and multicolour - the parti colouring was the most common when they were working dogs. For many years these coloured poodles were disliked and breeders 'terminated' coloured puppies at birth.
There is now an acceptance and desire to see all the colours of poodles and the colouring has nice simple gene linkage, the genes have been identified and when the breeders have their PRA, additions etc gene tests done they can add the colour genes easily.

This desire reflect all the true colouring is combined with a desire to ensure they remain true to the original description of a gentle, clever, trainable dog. People are beginning to start using standards for gun dog work again and the there is one person who has a dog who is both a field trial and show champion.
So the desire to breed for colour is actual about a much more complex shift in the breed.
I am a proud owner of a red standard a colour that for many years was terminated.

Thanks that’s interesting! But equally breeding for a specific colour feels wrong (at least the way that breeder is ‘because I like the colour.’) Surely a colour is a colour and people should breed for temperament and because their dog is a good example of the breed? We don’t breed cockers to be specific colours even though some are ‘undesirable’ for particular reasons

I don’t see a problem with colour preference in this way. Especially as pp has said with poodles it seems to be a simple genetic link.

what I do object to is breeding for colours which are detrimental to the dog. Merle for example, is highly popular at the minute (and reflected in astronomical prices!), yet that colourway in most dog breeds is associated with health issues.

same with Manx cats. Imo it’s unethical to breed an animal where the trait you’re breeding causes a set proportion of kittens to die.

Thanks, I knew someone would be better able to assess that breeder than I would.

All the same -- better a poodle with a few caveats than a puppy farmed cavapoo, surely.

I would go to another breeder, that sounds weird and shady

I also don't see as issue with breeding for colour as long as doing so isn't going to be detrimental to health or temperament.

But the colour isn’t a good reason to breed a dog just as it’s not a good reason to kill a dog. Dogs should be bred because they are a good example of a breed and they have a good temperament - if you read the post from the breeder she’s bred (basically) because she thinks her dog is pretty…that’s what I’m against. I get the history of the breed now that PP has explained, but a breeding a bitch simply because she’s pretty is an awful reason to have puppies

Surely a colour is a colour and people should breed for temperament and because their dog is a good example of the breed?

But what's wrong with doing both?

Because people rarely do both well.

I'd rather go to a breeder that bred because the dog was a good example of the breed, had low scores, good IC, lovely temperament and ditto for the father. Not because it's a nice colour.

I've never met a responsible breeder who picked their stud dog or their bitch based off colour. As PP said, its like breeding merles or sables (cockers). People who breed for those colours aren't doing it because their dogs are the best example of their breed they're doing it because the colour is more attractive and therefore they charge more money.

@Devilshands as long as the parents is healthy and of good temperament, why does it matter if they produce say, red puppies instead of black?

Lots of people choose one colour over another when picking their animals - it's very normal and not an issue unless it also means breeding from parents that are unhealthy (or opting for matings that will lead to unhealthy offspring).

Because people rarely do both well.

I think that's a matter of opinion. I know lots of people who have bred for colour on top of other things. As long as the pups are healthy and with good temperaments I really don't understand the fuss.

But then I think MN can be very OTT with breeders to the point that it's offputting.

It doesn't. But my point was people rarely do both well.

The litter quoted upthread - mum doesn't have half the health scores she should have. Neither does dad. They're being bred from because of their colour (which is actually what the breeder specifically says)- which is wrong. That is my objection. Dogs not properly health checked being bred from because they're a nice colour.

I'm not going to reply again - mostly because it's derailing the thread and even now understanding the context/history of poodle colours, I still think that litter above is dodgy as hell. Two health scores for one parent (and one parent without an eye check)? I wouldn't even let someone sell me a puppy from that litter, let alone pay for one.

With all due respect Devilshand you are wrong. Breeding for colour is no different than breeding for health and temperament as long as the relevant health testing is done and the parent dogs are of sound temperament.

There are obviously some red flags - merle breeding for example. But as long as some colours are not charged differently then it's no different to breeding for other desirable characteristics.

So you'd buy a puppy from a litter where one of the parents (in a breed well known to have serious sight/eye issues that can not only cause pain for the dog but cost thousands to manage) didn't have any eye checks done, just because it was a pretty colour? As with the litter upthread.

Because that's been the whole point of my argument - which for some reason no one seems capable of understanding...

I have no issue in principle with breeding for colour but ONLY if the parents are actually healthy etc. But they rarely are, as the litter upthread demonstrates.

That is not what I said and not what was being discussed. Would I buy a puppy from non health tested parents? No. Would I buy a puppy that was bred for colour with health tested parents with sound and breed appropriate temperaments? Yes.

Your original comments:
Thanks that’s interesting! But equally breeding for a specific colour feels wrong (at least the way that breeder is ‘because I like the colour.’) Surely a colour is a colour and people should breed for temperament and because their dog is a good example of the breed? We don’t breed cockers to be specific colours even though some are ‘undesirable’ for particular reasons

You can breed for colour, health and temperament. Many breeders do and very well.

Perhaps I didn't elaborate properly upthread. But the point was that the breeder upthread has bred for colour when she hasn't actually done the health checks necessary. My point has been the same (just not explained well)😊

It may have already been said but cavaliers are extremely prone to heart conditions and as much as i love them and weve had several, i wouldnt touch them anymore or even a cross