Breeding my lab

[suspiciousmums]

Afternoon all, I’m the proud owner of a beautiful golden lab and am looking at breeding from her and wondering if anyone has any tips please? My girl is KC registered, and I’m wondering about the pros and cons of registering any potential pups with the KC? I had a look on their site and found it all a bit confusing to be honest. The reason I want to breed for my girl is that she has the most gentle temperament, she’s a beautiful example of the breed. She’s had no medical issues, is a very well socialised dog. We would like to keep one pup of hers, plus several of my family members have also expressed interest in her puppies. I live in a very dog friendly, rural area and have also had a lot of locals approach asking about pups so I feel confident I would find good owners whom I can vet, and fortunately would have the space to be able to take back any pups if needed. I have grown up with dogs, however this would be the first time breeding. Although I have no experience of whelping pups, I have a medical background and have been present at 50+ human births and so I feel I would remain calm in the situation. Any advice appreciated, thanks

What's worse is UK rescues giving people these dogs without properly vetting them (or the dogs) and just relying on people's 'honesty' when they either hand the dog over or apply for a dog.

Admittedly not the point of OP's thread - but given OP isn't coming back...

Sane and sensible advice.

Our NDNs breed border collies: small scale but their (adult) daughter stops work completely when the litter is due and while the pups are with them, so they take it very seriously. Even with one adult dedicated to caring for the dogs, it's incredibly hard work and the profits are small.

That's reassuring. I don't know of any in the breed I own - it's either workers, heavily for show, or randoms.

Please don't. Have you seen how many puppies are advertised online these days? There were 4 million - yes, 4 million puppies bought during Covid. Many thousands who have ended back in welfare. There are hundreds of Labrador breeders out there with experience and who have bred their own bloodlines for genetic health problems and also temperament. Do you know anything about these aspects of breeding? Can you add to the perfection of an already established breed? If not, please consider enjoying your dog and leave breeding to the experts.

Thanks for all of the replies, I had messaged my dogs breeder prior to this post and she’s got back to me that she is planning to breed from my dogs sister from the same litter that she kept, either late in the year or next year, and so fingers crossed we can adopt one of those pups instead. I couldn’t bare something bad happening to my dog because of me. Will get her booked in to be spayed asap. Thanks

Great news Op. Thank you for updating.

Much better idea, except you won't be ' adopting ' you will be buying / purchasing,
people adopt or rehome from rescues etc.

I think you're made the right decision and thanks for the update OP. I hope you have many happy years with your beautiful dog and the potential new pup!

Yes I noticed this recently, too. I fostered am Anatolian X from a foreign rescue and although I was an experienced owner and I would have adopted him had he been suitable, it was clear from the off I was not the right home for him. He needed a pack as he'd only ever lived with his littermates and howled for them constantly. As a LSG breed, he also needed land to guard. He had resource guarding problems from a young age. He was rehomed on a farm with other dogs and is now very happy. I'm loathe to say it, but often rescues from abroad come with challenges many people aren't equipped to deal with.

It is insane that we are allowing the import of these dogs. (Not having a pop at you, @yorkshireteapot9 - you were trying to do a good thing and you didn't know what the dog would be like).

Amateur breeders get slagged off all the time, but IMO it's far more irresponsible to bring dogs that aren't socialised to being pets into the UK, and place them in family homes.

Pre-lock down. Maybe
Post-lockdown. No. We are approaching a dog(&pet) welfare crisis.

@EdithStourton Puppy from proven show lines (often not bred to have good pet temperaments; also a fairly limited supply)

I disagree.

Pretty much all show dogs have excellent temperaments because they're show dogs- they have to be comfortable being handled by complete strangers in often noisy surroundings, tolerant of being around other dogs & crowds of people.

Not every puppy will be show quality & they have the added advantage of coming from lines with steady temperaments, because breeding for neurosis or aggression would be counterproductive.

The same can be applied to both sport & working dogs- many make lovely pets but didn't have enough drive for what they were bred for.

And having to wait for the right puppy is a good thing, the reason we have a huge issue with overpopulation in rescues is because too many people are wanting to buy dogs with no thought or planning.

Backyard breeders, however nice people who love their dogs they may be, are happy to fill that gap in the market but once the money has exchanged hands they are nowhere to be seen if things go wrong.

I think the covid WFH changes made a difference to dog ownership patterns. There was an enormous extra demand for puppies from mid-2020 for a good couple of years, with prices ramped (and thefts increased, as gangs moved in because of the profit margins). Conscientious breeders largely stopped mating, because of restrictions on travel and meeting people. Also, customers could not visit puppies before purchase, and handovers would have just been lightening contacts outside a house (or by pet courier service). So not at all easy to know about your puppy's real start in life.

Those dogs, produced in a hurry to profiteer from sudden demand, are now roughly 3 years old, and may well be contributing to the increased numbers in rescues. Not least because many would have had issues from genetics (COI if you can't travel to an unrelated stud) and early socialisation. I think the poor breeding was an issue in why XL bullies became so dangerous - sky-rocketing COI and poor start to life left dogs prone to sudden rage (like some spaniels used to get before all the efforts to breed it out by never mating a dog - or a littermate of a dog - which had had it)

People are going to want pet dogs. Rescue dogs which need experienced homes only, or child-free homes, are not going to meet that demand, and many dogs that need rehoming would just not be safe - and I don't just mean toddler aged DC (which aren't a terribly good mix around a new dog), it also includes older primary DC (the years when it can be utterly joyous to have a dog) and sometimes even teenagers.

So I echo the question above, what's the best way of meeting the demand for family pets? (I don't have the answer, btw, but I do muse on what could lie between irresponsible individual and soulless puppy farm)

I think in some (perhaps most) cases temperament is considered when show breeding - but not always, sadly. And it can be hard with working lines to assess drive or ability at 8 weeks.

I'd also not want to generalise about 'backyard breeders' - though I suppose it depends how you define the term. I've known four families who have bred their pets. In two of those cases, now-adult puppies came back to them. One dog remained with her 'backyard breeders' for the rest of her life; the other was found a good home.

@wetotter Those dogs, produced in a hurry to profiteer from sudden demand, are now roughly 3 years old, and may well be contributing to the increased numbers in rescues.
I'd agree there. There was a lot of dodgy breeding during peak Covid when the price of puppies went through the roof.

It's pretty clear, given the proliferation of puppy farms, that although - as I have found from this thread - there are experienced breeders who focus on the pet market - there aren't enough of them. So would it make sense to encourage people who have a stellar pet dog to get it health tested, facilitate mentorship for them with an experienced breeder, and provide some sort of educational course covering the pros, cons and pitfalls, and all the things they need to know - (COI, whelping, screening new owners etc)?

That is a much better idea @suspiciousmums

Oh I do agree with you, I've heard some horror stories about show breeders who have kept their dogs in dreadful conditions.

It seems to happen with sport dog breeders (the Absolute Dogs fiasco being just one example), & although I've not seen as much with working dogs I'm sure it happens.

Sorry, I don't believe Joe Bloggs next door should be legally allowed to breed dogs. I think it should all be licensed.

Impossible to regulate. It would just become another in the long-list of rules that only law-abiding people actually take any notice of. And licensing will come with costs of regulation/inspection, pushing up costs of puppies and incentivising people to use illicit puppy farms.

What’s a stellar pet dog though? Who is deciding that? Because owners aren’t always the best judge of their own dog, they usually think they’re amazing, no matter what.

One of our dogs is a nearly 2 yr old farm collie, my DP adores him, would happily breed him if I didn’t object, because - direct quote, look at him, he’s the best, who wouldn’t want more of him?

But... while he is of course subjectively the bestest sweetest boy - objectively he’s also slightly neurotic and hyperactive but completely not suited to what he was bred for, with bad teeth and unknown genetics.

The fact that some show breeders or working dog breeders are breeding badly by not also breeding for temperament isn’t really a good reason to be more relaxed about what you look for in a breeder, IMO people should be much fussier as it is.

How would you regulate it though? You can't. There are dogs (and cats) up and down the country who aren't neutered and who have never seen a vet. It would be absolutely impossible to manage.

100% agree

But there is a responsibility on the buyer of these dogs as much as there is on any breeder etc. People buying dogs shouldn't be buying them from Joe Bloggs who knows nothing about dogs.

But, the majority of people who buy from these people are the problem as much as the breeder. They don't want to go through necessary checks that a proper breeder puts in place. They don't want to pay for a decent and healthy puppy. They don't want to sign a contract. They don't want to hand over evidence of their salary/outgoings to prove they can afford a dog. They don't want to sit on a wait list. They don't want to do an of it correctly. They just want a puppy.

Ultimately, no matter what regulations you put in place there will always be customers who cannot be arsed to do it the proper way and as long as there are customers there will be sellers.

Unfortunately, the increase in requirements to licence breeders actually made things worse rather than better, in my opinion. It used to be an easy thing to say 'avoid licensed breeders like the plague', because they were the puppy farmers/volume breeders.

Far better to go to a show breeder who breeds occasionally, lives with generations of health tested dogs of good temperament and sells quality pets that look and behave like the breed people chose to buy. Unfortunately, so many of those have thrown in the towel after the licensing changes. They were by far the best place to get a puppy.

(Yes, I know not all show breeders are good, but so many are - and there is also a responsibility for buyers to make sure it's the good ones they buy from and not just buy puppies because they're local/cheap/available immediately.)

Agree with you mainly but had to correct you on the 'Crufts Best in Breed Champion' there is literally no such thing, sorry it drives me potty when people refer to Crufts Champions. They don't exist. Crufts Best of Breed winner is what you mean.

My show dog has stronger prey drive than my working dog!

I've wondered much the same, and was wondering as I typed the post. Perhaps, along with doing the course, the owners could have the dog assessed for temperament and stability. They could perhaps get some sort of certificate at the end of it all, and that would be something that puppy buyers could look for. It would let them know that a lot of thought had gone into the breeding, the COI was low, health tests had been done as necessary etc. You'd still get Joe Bloggs showing two dogs together, but it would help people looking for a puppy who don't have much background in dogs.