Commands Not Training. ?

[ZiggyZowie]

I've just had an argument with my son who says I've not trained my dog.
My dog has been with us 3 years since a puppy.
I have taught him Stay, Sit, Toilet, Off, Lie down.
He knows he's not allowed on the furniture, when I take him out and say 'toilet' he does it straight away.
There was an issue where he barked when people come to the house and runs over and he
had been nipping at their heels . So I tell him
him 'N0'. when the doorbell goes and I say 'bed' and he stays in his bed while I answer the door.
The other issue he has is chasing cars so I have to make sure he is on a lead.
We live on a single track miles from anywhere but one or two cars a day pass. If he is off lead he will chase them.
Our yard is well fenced 80 x60 ft and he can't get on the road from it.
So because of the car issue would you say he's not trained? I don't know how to get through to him not to do it. I try not to give him the chance by keeping him on a lead when out on walks.
If he is offlead,he just won't listen and will chase them

Imo even the best trained ddog has moments of just being a ddog and acts like a knob.

My son says the dog understands commands but that I've not trained him .
But I thought that the dog obeying commands means he is trained ?
Who is right?

If you have no control over your dog when he is off lead then no he isn’t fully trained yet.

There is a bit more to dog training than half a dozen commands, really. I’ve been taking my dog to classes for eight years. We’ve done all the Kennel Club tests but I like working him and he enjoys it. It’s a hobby really. You could teach him some more. Are there any classes near you?

Some people will define "trained" as the dog doing the behaviour without needing to be asked.

So in your scenario - they believe that when the doorbell goes the dog should automatically go to his bed rather than waiting to be told "bed".

In other words, they learn that when the doorbell goes, they go to their bed, or that when you're making their dinner, they automatically wait in a certain place rather than being told to sit and wait every time.

But your dog sounds normal to me!

Dogs can understand literally hundreds of concepts (or words, if you like).

I think it’s a shame when dogs’ brains aren’t exercised and stretched - they are living a shadow of the life they could have.

You could train him not to chase the cars, but it’s a long process and needs consistency.

Training isn't about commands. It's about building bonds, mutual trust and laying very solid foundations which are repeated again and again, varying and then increasing the levels of stimulus and complexity of the environment. Think about it in terms of educating a small human. You introduce the concept at the level they can understand. Then build on it more and more over their education, introduce different situations (scenarios) and then test them (exams), redoing what they do not get right, taking it back a step if necessary. Training a dog is no different. You can say to a 6 year old 'do that A level question' and expect them to have a clue. It will need to be built over time at levels appropriate to their cognitive level.

You also have to work with not against individual breed traits, manipulating the environment so the dog can make the right choices so you can reward them for it and they not get into the habit of making the wrong (for us) choices.

Your dog is responding to his natural instinct of chasing/herding. ALL dogs have prey drives just some more prevalent than others. Chasing absolutely can be trained but you need maximum management, never being allowed to chase and then working up from a very low environment to a very high one.

If you think about it in human terms, commands Vs training is like a child 'leaving' biscuits on the counter when you're there watching them and telling them to leave them alone, Vs a child 'leaving' the biscuits on the counter when you nip upstairs to get some laundry, or pop outside to gather it in.

Your dog knows what the command means and can perform it on cue, which is brilliant. But now that needs to be generalised. Generalisation is about proofing and proofing is achieved by the 3 Ds:

1. Distance
2. Duration
3. Distraction

So a behaviour would be considered 'proofed' when your dog can do what you want them to be for as long as you want them to, either from a distance or very close up (depending on whether distance makes the behaviour harder or easier), and around distractions.

E.g. I want my dog to sit.

1. Can my dog sit when I lure them into it with a treat?
2. Can my dog sit when I use a hand signal and treat?
3. Can my dog sit when I use a hand signal and no treat?
4. Can my dog sit when I use the word 'sit' and a treat?
5. Can my dog sit with just the word 'sit'?
6. Can my dog sit with the word sit when I take a step back?
7. What about 3 steps back?
8. How about across the room?
9. What if a jogger is running by?
10. How about a dog?
11. Can they stay in sit for a minute?

The list is endless.

Personally I never command my dogs - they have cues but not commands.

I'd say your dog isn't trained enough, rather than not trained. Chasing behaviours are dangerous for the dog and others, so they do need to be stopped. Control is better than prevention simply because prevention doesn't account for slip ups.

Border collie by any chance? They are notorious for chasing.

What would you say the difference is, other than semantics, @IngGenius ? Are you thinking 'expectation' Vs 'invitation'?

Training is an ongoing process

Your dog sounds like every boarder collie I have ever known.

Tone of voice, body language, expectation?

Like IngGenius I will ask (cue) my dog. Like I'd ask anyone to do something. If she can't do it then I'd look at why - motivation, distraction, duration, stressors etc etc.

A command is 'do it or else'. A cue is an ask and look at why it's not working. My dog is very young, energetic and easily distracted. So I'd also look to get her full attention on me before asking her to do anything!

Who cares? If it works for you great
if your son isn’t happy perhaps he can train the dog

For me a cue means something great will happen if it is performed but command is an order and should happen regardless. So probably semantics but worth thinking about.

A command is an order and if it does not happen a consequence of not performing the behaviour usually happens. So can become aversive to the dog. Even if the dog does not sit the owner will often just machine gun the dog with sit sit sit sit until they do. A command will be given regardless of how the dog is feeling or if the situation is appropriate.

A cue would ask for a sit s the dog is very aware something great will happen if they do the dog will sit and be reinforced, A cue will only be given if it is acceptable and likely to happen. If a cue does not happen then I will look at the communication between the dog and handler. Has the cue been taught correctly does the dog know what it means, is the reinforcement appropriate for the dog. Is the environment too challenging for the dog to offer this behaviour

OP I would say that your dog has not been shown how to behaviour in the situation of cars. It is is a border collie it is very very very easy to sort out though

Ah fair enough. I use 'cue' for my own dogs but for me, command isn't such a loaded word.

But that is because they aren't trained sufficiently. No working border collie chases, because the breed would be useless as herders if they did. My border collies don't chase, because they are trained not to (unless that is the purpose of the activity).

I doubt it. I think they just have more of an urge to nip at heals and wheels than other breeds. Luckily also brilliant at recall and intelligent so not that hard to train.

They do have the urge to herd, chase and nip but that doesn't mean they're not badly trained when they do it to cars or bikes.

Righto 👍🏽

If they are intelligent and not that hard to train then if they are chasing things they are not sufficiently trained! I wouldn't dispute that they are intelligent, but they are in fact often hard to train because they are often smarter than their owners. A border collie that chases is a danger to the herd.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to tell me @Neriah or why?

@TomeTome
I am telling you that you are incorrect. You said you "doubted" that border collies only nipped at heels and wheels, and chased because they weren't sufficiently well trained. I'm telling you that you are wrong. Why? Because you are wrong.

Ahh I see. I should have been clearer. The collies I have known were imo well trained but ALL went through a more pronounced period of heel nipping and wheel obsession. They were all easier to train in general but had that predilection, similarly hounds I have known howled, labs were food obsessed, whippets had a tendency to go zoomy. It was a throw away comment about my own experience.