Regulate trainers instead of banning breeds

[Decktheschools]

Dog training is unregulated in the UK. Anyone can call themselves an expert in training and behaviour and set themselves up as a dog trainer. Even more worrying, they can then train other people to be trainers and propagate a dangerous number of people who call themselves trainers and look official because they hold a certificate. Even worse, they then go on TV and show off to the camera and people think they must be the best.

Good trainers constantly update their knowledge. They incorporate the latest evidence into their training. They use force free methods of training which are proven to provide long term solutions, but they aren't sexy and quick so don't make good TV. They don't use adversaries, yank the lead or shout no. It's been proven that the use of punishment or adversaries such as a raised voice or making a loud noise can create an aggressive dog. It doesn't happen for every dog, but it happens enough, the so called training makes the problem worse.

If all trainers were regulated then dog owners could be sure the person they are going to for help was qualified to give that help. Then maybe we wouldn't have so many aggressive dogs and breeds wouldn't have to be banned.

What do you think?

I’m not convinced the people whose dogs are out of control are even seeking help in the first place.

First reply nailed it.

Why would anyone seek out those breeds? They’re so ugly and capable of such damage. So many nicer breeds out there.

It’s because they look ‘hard’ and fit a certain tough image the owner is trying to portray.

Have any of the dogs involved in these incidents had professional training from anyone, regulated or not?

You can’t seriously think the dangerous dogs, ie xl bully attacks recently, is due to poor professional trainers?

Should have expanded my first reply. I don’t disagree with anything you say about dog trainers OP, but I just don’t see it making much of a difference when it comes to dog attacks.

What do I think? I think you’re deluded if you think the owners of these dogs will think ‘I really must seek out a regulated trainer who specialises in non-aversive training and spend hundreds of pounds on that for my XL bully and that will immediately mean there is no chance of him tearing a human to shreds’

You're probably right about trainers, but aren't the dogs causing trouble born and sometimes trained to cause harm? How can a trainer train that out of the dog sufficiently to be sure that that dog will never harm someone?

Nope. Dangerous breeds should still be banned. Even the best trained dog in the world can snap under the right circumstances, and if they're the type of breed you can't easily defend yourself against then I'm afraid the only sane choice is a ban.

Only responsible dog owners take their dogs to trainers. So the dogs carrying out these attacks have more than likely never been yo a trainer in their lives.

I think the issue is many dogs are set up for failure by poor training, and owners who believe that what they see on TV is the best way to train a dog.

If you read up about dog attacks, and not just the ones which cause deaths, quite often the owners have gone to a trainer but the dog still bit. The issue with the xl bully isn't that it's a vicious dog, it's that it's powerful enough to kill. Lots of less powerful dogs bite and cause injuries, we need to stop blaming the dog and instead looking at what is causing them to become so fearful the only way out is to attack.

Having an unregulated training industry around dogs is leading to poor and harmful techniques being used which directly cause aggression. If someone squirted you in the face with water every time you talked would you trust that person to help you out if you were frightened, or would you quietly deal with the problem yourself without talking and attack the perceived threat?

And I don't think banning dangerous breeds is the answer. Are Jack Russell's a dangerous breed? https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk/2013/apr/09/baby-died-bitten-jack-russell

That article about a Jack Russell is from 2013. There’s a reason that you’ve used one that’s 10 years old - little dogs might be badly trained and unpleasant, but it’s very rare for them to kill.

Your idea is silly for two reasons. First, the shits that own XLs and the like won’t care about regulated training. Second, no training is foolproof so I don’t want a dog that size near my kids however well it theoretically behaves.

The issue with the xl bully isn't that it's a vicious dog.

The issue with the xl bully seems to be precisely that.

The article you quoted said that in the six years prior to the article 8 people had been killed in the UK by dogs. 8 people have been killed in the UK by XL bullies this year - often in their own homes or where they have escaped. They've often attacked one one or more occasion prior to the fatal incident.

They are dangerous and strict regulation/banning is coming thankfully.

The thing that gets me with XL bullies is, it’s a new breed that’s been created in the last few years. What’s lost by banning it? Does it really fill a positive niche that no other dogs can fill?

we need to stop blaming the dog and instead looking at what is causing them to become so fearful the only way out is to attack.

What is causing them to attack is that they were bred purely for the purpose of doing so.

XL bullies were bred to be bigger, stronger versions of pit bulls which were originally bred to be fighting dogs.

Training regulation is too little too late and won’t impact the root cause nor the target demographic “owners” of these mutant fighting machines. Their sheer size, power and selective breeding for aggressive and guarding traits has led to an extremely dangerous situation with these dogs, and multiple deaths. That cannot be allowed to continue.

I think you are confusing two things. I agree that there needs to be some form of certification of trainers, although this is complicated because there are many legitimate routes to good training.

But the people with bad dogs, whether Chihuahuas or XL bullies won't go to a trainer. Some don't care. Others are just irresponsible. Either way they won't engage or follow through with training. And policing people who have "untrained" dogs is impossible.

And what will you do about people who don't need trainers because they are both responsible and capable owners who don't require trainers?

Mainly because people want them as status dogs. Not all people find them ugly and in the right hands they can be the most loving dogs, sadly many are in the wrong hands are untrained and kept in houses that are not secure (these dogs can clear a fence). If these dogs are banned there will be a replacement, it won’t solve the problem, the problem is with anyone being allowed to go out and buy a dog and then not train it appropriately. There will be another powerful large breed that will replace the XL Bully, that will become the next trend amongst certain people. More rules need to be brought in to who can buy dogs and there needs to be tighter laws on breeding.

“we need to stop blaming the dog and instead looking at what is causing them to become so fearful the only way out is to attack.”

This is missing the point in the most spectacular way. These dogs have been bred selectively for fighting, baiting, aggression and high prey drive. They cannot help it and the whole sorry mess is entirely our fault. We cannot skirt the issue that on this case it is very much breed, not deed.

Training should be regulated but that doesn't mean some breeds don't also need to be banned.

It isn’t an either/or. We can both ban this particular breed (although I don’t envy whoever has to come up with a robust legal definition) and improve the standard of dog trainers.

Banning dogs does not work - more dangerous dogs of a different type will be bred as history has already shown.

Yep regulate training. But it will make no difference to dangerous dogs on its own

Regulate Breeding - that will have a bigger impact.

Interesting that you use the example of a Jack Russell OP. I worked in rescue in the past. In my life as a whole I’ve been bitter by one JRT and Once by an elderly and senile labradoodle. Neither injuries needed medical treatment because neither dog was bred to have the size, jaw strength, musculature and reflexes of XL bullies. JRTs are bred for fox hunting, rodent hunting etc. labradoodles are bred for … probably comic effect to be honest. Neither incident required me to use much force to defend myself. If I had been bitten by an XL bully though it wouldn’t be something I could’ve handled by using my ‘stern voice’. They don’t just bite, they lock in