My dog is perfect for trainer and not me

[Vanillacupcake33]

My dog is 8 months old and was fab until 15 weeks when an off lead dog ran up to her barking and growling and the owner then quite roughly stroked her and apologised for his dog. My pup was understandably nervous. After this she seemed to bark at every passing dog and person. We took her to a trainer who deals with these breeds and we are now getting alot better, definatly seeing improvements but she is still quite nervous if people or dogs are too close and she tried to run off infront. My trainer took her to a built up area yesterday, lots of people and dogs and I sat there with my mouth open...she was absolutly perfect. Yes a few dogs barked and she barked back or tried to scatter off infront but I couldn't believe my eyes. She walked so well. Healing when told, no pulling, walking past people and dogs with no reaction. I took the lead and I was so proud to be walking her. I was gobsmacked. Then, I took her on a walk today and straight back to pulling and barking at dogs. I did everything my trainer asked and everything I did with him yesterday. I took her on a run arpund a field first to wear her out, then into the street as my trainer said wearing her out first will help all the energy go away so she'll probably walk better when around her fears. That did not happen today. Don't get me wrong she is better but I feel so deflated after seeing what she did yesterday then today. I know it takes time but after seeing her walk around so many people and dogs yetserday, i thought she'd be ok today and know they are no threat. Why do dogs behave for trainers and little 💩 when they're back with their owners.

I take your fake ddog and raise you a calculating fucker..
Arrived at the trainer's yard... Dpuppy (sighthound) walked past a family of week old ducklings... Didn't even sly eye one! Add in a few horses. Field of cows. Didn't falter
. Got her home and she tried to eat ndn's collie...
Gave up.

I had a German Shepherd the same. Ex police dog trainer said he would be a wonderful PD. Calm and focused in busy streets and around people and small offlead dogs we passed by. He couldn't understand my issue really.
He left the building so to speak and five minutes later I'm dragged down the prom. behind this 'super' dog as he's intent on interacting in some worrying way with a yorkshire terrier.
He never changed.

When there’s something wrong with my dog as soon as I walk her into the vets office any limp disappears and she prances in wagging her tail. I’m sure her file notes say she has a neurotic owner.

I’d say your dog was probably distracted by the novelty of a new handler.

Mine is a german shepherd too. The trainer we are with, also ex police officer and trains mainly these breeds, said she was slightly fearful but did really well yesterday. I got home thinking, yes we cracked it! Quite excited to go on my walk today, I was confident and in Control....errrm nope! Pup in control. I sat down when I got home thinking wtf! How can you walk around so many people and dogs yesterday without so much as look and today you see one dog and decide to play monster dog with no manners what so ever.

Love this! It's so strange. She actually is nervous arpund the trainer too but after 2 minutes of having her she's by his side. The only other thing I can think of is that there was so much stimuli with all the people and dogs, she just didn't really know what to do but trust in the trainer. When he passed me the lead, it was like walking a different dog. They are too clever!

@Notegoat

As someone who has owned GSD’s with the same problem, id take a guess that your dog is feeding from your anxiety of the situation… hear me out

You may do what I used to do and anticipate a problem before it’s happened, your body tenses slightly putting pressure on the lead, that feeds down to the dog and before you know it, they have been set off

stand back and take a look at the trainers body language, are they walking upright and walking with purpose and a loose lead? When a potential problem occurs a short sharp tug on the lead (but not hard, just enough to get the dogs attention for a split second) the dog looks at them for direction?

I could be off here but this is what I observed with mine and once I changed my body language and had purpose to my movements my dog was miles better and eventually walked amazingly well

@Isanyholeagoal I've noticed this too. Its definitely a thing.

@Isanyholeagoal has it spot on. The trainer will have subtly different body language and confidence born from years of doing this professionally. Most of dog training is actually owner training - ask your trainer to observe you and then give you some guidance as to how to behave and handle yourself, and your dog's behaviour will follow.

Ahhh yes this is what we've been taught by the trainer. We've had 2 sessions so far and he's amazing. We are doing the 'correction tugs', as he calls them and this is how we've seen improvement because we were using a harness before that. My trainer observed me yesterday and did say before I set off I'm already holding the lead half way down so I needed to give more lead and that way the gentle tugs will work better. We've had many dogs in the past and this one is a new one 🤣 we've seen improvement but one day she'll walk amazingly and others decides to give people her opinion. I was just so disheartened today because she was so perfect yesterday with all those people and dogs and saw one today and reacted so it did gut me. She's such a good dog in the house but outside people think she's a demon and cross over. She doesn't lunge anymore like she used to, just barks if they're on the opposite path or runs swiftly past, tail between legs if they're on same path. It's nice to hear from fellow gsd owners!

I feel your pain. My dog was exactly the same. Don’t get disheartened though, it’s always one step forward and what feels like a thousand back. It’s just a case of finding the right technique for you and repeating it over and over and lots of praise when they get it right. No different to a toddler really 😂

they are fantastic dogs but definitely have their quirks and aren’t for the faint hearted. Good luck, and keep up the good work!

Your dog may have shut down with the trainer. So they won’t react. I’d bet with more handling by then she’d become more likely to react. It’s just how nervous dogs are.

im a trainer. I don’t handle the dogs I teach as it does nothing to help the owner. I specialise in agility and can get bags more from some of the dogs I teach. But that’s not my role. My role is to help the partnership improve.

‘Gentle’ tugs are aversive. They will make it worse long term. Aversives suppress behaviour. Nothing more. Find yourself a reward based trainer who understands how dogs learn. It’s not by using punishment (and yes I’ve trained GSDs).

When your dog is with the trainer, don't watch the dog, watch the trainer.

Dog starts to prat around trainer stops and tells you about trigger points and how to handle them, slips dog bit of dried liver, then proceeds with a calm dog.

Do the same, dog starts to prat around, turn sideways so that the dog has to watch you to know what is happening next. Have a chat with an imaginary person about how to control your dog, slip dog a bit of dried liver and proceed with calm dog. Knowing you have just saved £50 is so relaxing.

Now agility is where I would like a trainer, as the dog seems much better at it than me.

Thanks again for the replies. There are gsd in my family and it took them until 2 years old to finally relax around people. I think what worried me mainly is someone told me a nervous gsd is one to watch and you can't really take them on holidays, don't allow them near kids (I have 2 and she adores them). She's played with dogs off lead on the field (dogs I know). My trainer has said he's seen more nervous dogs than her and the nerves will always be at the back of her mind because it can be in their genes. We did everything by the book, the same we've done with any of our other dogs, such as socialise young, taking different places, car rides, exposing to sounds. That 1 incident really scared her. I saw a man last week who has a gsd, same age as mine and he was perfect on a lead, no reaction etc and he admitted he did less socialising than I did. I am a very willing person and wont give up on her. Before we had her we knew what to expect, such as energy, vocal, velcro dogs, can be timid etc. The reactivity we started working on as soon as we knew it was a problem. I'm just so baffled by how amazing she was yesterday, so I know that confident dog is in there. We had a trainer before this one but she basically told me walk at quiet times, cross over if we see another dog so she was never facing her fear and yesterday. In fact they were group sessions and she started to react on the second session when a small dog growled at her and that was it she barked the whole way through. The trainer sat there and watched. Never helped me or told me what to do and that happened every session for 6 weeks. In the end every dog owner avoided me and when doing things such as recall, the other dogs were allowed off lead ro do it and mine stayed on lead the one time they allowed her off lead, I stood one end and the trainer had her the other and I had to shout her and as soon as the lead was off everyone pulled their dogs back and my pup ran straight to me, never even looked at anyone. I actually came out of there in tears and never went back.

I'm just so baffled by how amazing she was yesterday, so I know that confident dog is in there.

As a PP said, what you saw may not be confidence.

Your "trainer" is using aversive methods to get your dog to listen and pay attention. Tugging a dog about by it's collar only works because it causes pain and discomfort to your dog. It doesn't make your dog confident - in the long run it can make them very scared.

Where did you find this trainer? Are they qualified and recognised by any official body? Because "trainer" is not a protected term and anyone can set themselves up as a dog trainer - you don't need any qualifications or even any interest in dogs.

Personally I wouldn't go near someone who wanted to use "correction tugs" on my dog. Reactivity is caused by fear - you don't fix fear by using aversive methods. You fix it by working on your dogs' emotional response and teaching them that there's nothing to be scared of - by using positive reinforcers like praise, food or toys. Not by using negative ones like tugging at their necks and pulling them about by the collars.

Echo the other posters, I’d be very concerned about a nervous dog and adversive methods.
It usually ends in disaster. It’s a quick fix and then far bigger problems down the line.

Having seen your comment about 'correction tugs', I think you need to look for a positive trainer. The last thing a nervous dog needs is aversive training.

It happens with horses too perfect with trainer hopeless with you, animals associate behavior with owner/handler if owners handling is wrong the they revert to bad behavior. Animals sense your pheromones too they know your moods and stresses, some professionals have to use strong scent to mask their own odours.

Having said that some breeds are very difficult, Spaniels are notorious

The trainer is an ex police dog handler who now trains dogs to work in security but also teaches obedience etc. He has 6 gsd of his own too and mainly works with bigger dogs. We read all reviews on him and was recommended by many people. He was quite well known but the reason i didnt pick him to begin with was because i thought he pnly trained dogs in security, but this was not the case. We did try a another trainer who used positive training only but this seemed to be where things got worse to be honest. She responded well at first because I'd done alot of training at home from the word go. We did basics such as sit, down, leave, drop it, stay etc so she was brilliant when in the session and we had our own space in the arena, but the minute another dog barked or lunged at her, she would continue the barking throughout the session and the treats, taking her mind of it etc wouldn't work. The trainer we have now doesn't use the 'hard corrections' you see on videos etc it's more a gentle flick and a firm no and eventually with the trainer she no longer needed the gentle flick because as soon as he said no she was straight back to heal again, so she kind of corrected herself but I certainly would not be allowing anyone to hurt my dog and if I felt he was doing so, I would immediately come away from training. The trainer was able to have her sit and watch dogs go by happily and only used the gentle tug if she was just getting ready to react then he would command a firm 'no' and only follow with the tug if she started to bark, then he'd have her sit until calm and walk on. The strange thing is she was only anxious if a dog barked at her when we were in the public area, she walked lovely next to people and dogs and behind them and even let the trainer stop to speak to a few people who knew him as he goes there to train reactivity but when she sees one person on their own or with a dog she'll bark. It's almost like she doesn't trust solo people. A group walked past me this morning and she kept an eye on them but was ok but then saw a man on his own and barked at him. I gave a firm no, had her sit and watch him walk by and once calm walked on.

As other people have said… it’s a quick fix.
If you want a fear aggressive nervous wreck in a years time… your funeral.

Also I would add these techniques are one thing on a confident dog… but with a nervous dog could really have the potential for a disaster. I’d ditch both trainers and speak to an actual behaviourist

eventually with the trainer she no longer needed the gentle flick because as soon as he said no she was straight back to heal again, so she kind of corrected herself

She corrected herself because "flicks on the lead" (which you called correction tugs earlier) are aversive and unpleasant for her.

For a correction to work, dogs need to associate them with something positive (treats, toys, praise) or something negative (fear, pain, anger).

Dogs don't respond to nothing - so they won't learn a desired behaviour unless it results in something positive (or the undesired behaviour results in something negative).

So in your scenario, she learnt that if she didn't walk to heel, she'd get a tug on her neck that was unpleasant. So no pulling = no unpleasant tug = I won't pull anymore.

You don't want your dog to learn through negative associations - especially when you have a strong, nervous working breed like a GSD.

Ex police dog handler - that’s where you are going wrong.

The only person I’ve ever asked to leave a class was one of those. He thought acceptable to haul his working Labrador puppy up by the neck because she was being a puppy. He was banned for multiple classes and clubs.

PLEASE find another trainer. GSDs aren’t special. They are working dogs. They learn like other dogs. With positive reinforcement, counter conditioning and gentle exposure. In fact working dogs need more careful handling if anything.

I have been using counter conditioning with her now for a few weeks. Went in a field and had her sit and watch 2 dogs playing in the distance today and gradually got closer. I didnt want to push her too far by making her go closer, so treat and a game of catch along side them and then walked past them, allowing a look but not a stare because ive noticed if he stares, she will bark, she also seemed happy for a man to talk to me with hia dog at a little difference while sitting and watching. I also asked 2 people if they would mind my dog walking past them a few times, all was fine there. There was a young lad walking past us as we were heading home she didn't really like but I think it was his hat. I do use other positive methods, counter conditioning, liver treats, ball and plenty of 'good girl' 'well done'. I only ever do the gentle tug if we are walking past someone and she stares and I know she is going to bark or lunge and say no and continue walking, have her sit then praise with treat. If i dont do this she goes from 0-60 in seconds and nothing will work as its too late. I do not use the flicks constantly or on its own. I am constantly Praising and rewarding. I am trying to do whatever I can to help her. My trainer always praises good behaviour too and at the end of the session he takes her to the nearest field for a game of ball or tug. He is not the trainer that drags the dog around, I certainly would not allow it. Everything he does is gentle, unlike the videos I have seen on you tube. I'm not using full on 'pops' as someone calls them, it's a flick just to get her attention. There is a trainer on TV (forget his name) I watched him once, and he did exactly the same thing.

Any aversives will undo your counter conditioning.

Find someone who understands how dogs learn.