My dog is perfect for trainer and not me

[Vanillacupcake33]

My dog is 8 months old and was fab until 15 weeks when an off lead dog ran up to her barking and growling and the owner then quite roughly stroked her and apologised for his dog. My pup was understandably nervous. After this she seemed to bark at every passing dog and person. We took her to a trainer who deals with these breeds and we are now getting alot better, definatly seeing improvements but she is still quite nervous if people or dogs are too close and she tried to run off infront. My trainer took her to a built up area yesterday, lots of people and dogs and I sat there with my mouth open...she was absolutly perfect. Yes a few dogs barked and she barked back or tried to scatter off infront but I couldn't believe my eyes. She walked so well. Healing when told, no pulling, walking past people and dogs with no reaction. I took the lead and I was so proud to be walking her. I was gobsmacked. Then, I took her on a walk today and straight back to pulling and barking at dogs. I did everything my trainer asked and everything I did with him yesterday. I took her on a run arpund a field first to wear her out, then into the street as my trainer said wearing her out first will help all the energy go away so she'll probably walk better when around her fears. That did not happen today. Don't get me wrong she is better but I feel so deflated after seeing what she did yesterday then today. I know it takes time but after seeing her walk around so many people and dogs yetserday, i thought she'd be ok today and know they are no threat. Why do dogs behave for trainers and little 💩 when they're back with their owners.

Is the trainer you referring to in the Dogs Behaving Badly series? He does a gentle tug, almost as if to remind the dog to look at you, rather than the distraction. That’s what my trainer does.

I’m getting so confused as to what’s right and what’s wrong. Everyone seems to have a different opinion.

I tried to watch this yesterday but that man wound me up so much. He still seems to be talking about being the boss and dominance theory.

Now I hope you're not my agility trainer watching my endless mistakes and knowing my dog could be a star!

It’s a bit like this up to 2 years. Always something to sort out. It gets better though.

Graeme Hall isn't a professional trainer - he's a TV star who promotes quick fixes because it makes good TV. He's not actually qualified in anything.

He's also faced a lot of criticism from those of us who actually train and work with dogs on a daily basis - tugging dogs about by their necks (and that's exactly what he does - it's not a "flick" on the lead) is aversive and only works because it's uncomfortable for the dog.

If you want your dog to pay attention, why not use their name? Or a command? Or distract them with their favourite toy or a treat? There's absolutely no need to tug by their collar or flick their lead

Riverlee - go to the science. Burch and Bailey are a good start. How dogs learn. It’s not by pain or punishment. It’s by repetition and reinforcement. Bags of stuff out there to back this up. None on punishment other than how damaging it is.

Reward based trainers are not permissive. I have things I expect of my dog. But I’m far more likely to get there much faster if I use reward and reinforcement and it’s more long term and reliable. Plus my dog trusts me and listens to me.

Look at agility for example. It is impossible to force your dog to like it. The more they enjoy it the better they are at it. The more it rewards them the faster they get. Apply that to everyday. If your dog WANTS to do something then it’s far more reliable. Ok takes more thought and patience. But it’s there for life unlike punishment where often to be effective it takes harsher and harsher methods.

I used to use punishment. I found a better way.

He labels virtually everything as attention seeking and never looks at WHY they may be needing that attention. My husband WFH and therefore does the dog walking. He was ill for 10 days a few weeks ago so I was jamming them in around work plus she wasn’t getting the play and attention she needed as he wasn’t well enough. Puppy was a little shit during that time as hard as we tried to mitigate things for her. He’d label her attention seeking when she just needed more input.

I completely agree with other posters that state that your dog is shutting down. Of course your dog will be fine for the trainer, because she is scared of having the lead tugged.
I have two reactive dogs, and got a trainer who used these methods. Absolutely made it worse, not better. So had to rethink.
I started from basics. This is a fabulous game and worked great . Started from far away, and moved closer each time. If dog is reacting, you are too close. Don't let her practise the behaviour. One of my dogs is super anxious, so it took him a bit longer, but he reliably walked past a bigger dog and looked at me instead ( the thing he's most scared of) It's called the Engage/Disengage game.

If you think about it in her doggy mind. Dog barks at scary thing. Scary thing goes away, therefore the barking becomes the behaviour that works, producing their learned behaviour. Changing that focus to, " oooo look scary thing, if I look at Mum/Dad instead, I get a reward for not barking at scary thing, maybe scary thing isn't that scary, because I get a reward. If your body language or you tighten up your lead, dog senses your fear too, so relax. You need to keep practising.

Also, dog won't take treats when it's reactive, so don't try. Nor should you reward a dog for being reactive. I use " let's go" and remove my dog right away until he is calm again. That might be what the issue was and trainer should have told you this.

Yes that's what my trainer does. Ive noticed mine is more reactive as we leave the house, obviously excitement for the walk ahead and normally that's the only time the tug is needed if I see a dog approaching or if a dog/person is on the same side as us. Yesterday we went on our walk and as we approached the field there was a man and a dog so I had her sit and watch the dog, rewarding her for being calm, then got closer. She actually let me speak to the owner from a distance and normally she'd bark. She is starting to allow me to get closer other than that initial walk to the field. Once she's had a run around she'll walk lovely back home with the odd bark. I do try my best to use another form of training if I can such as sit and watch, reward etc but there are those moments where I know based on how she is that that will not work and so the tug is needed. If I don't do that she just goes from 0-60 in seconds then the control is lost. Even a liver treat won't work and that's her fave. My old trainer wanted me to walk her at quiet times, no greetings etc but to me that isn't going to help her socialise and learn manners around other dogs, it's only going to make her realise that if a dog barks I walk the opposite way and the threat has then gone. I want to slowly get her comfortable around dogs. I have watched so many videos and tried so many different techniques.

Graeme Hall isn't a professional trainer - he's a TV star who promotes quick fixes because it makes good TV. He's not actually qualified in anything.

They really should be forced to state a disclaimer at the beginning of these programmes stating that the presenter has no dog training qualifications whatsoever. Unfortunately good dog training rarely makes good TV.

Yes, I do think that's what it is too. My trainer watched me the other day and said before I even set off walking I've got the lead a bit tight which automatically puts her on guard. So I slackened the lead and walked up and down a quiet area a few times before setting back off through the public part. I have to read her body because sometimes she'll see a dog and look back at me and others she'll stare which then obviously turns into a bark and by then it's too late. So I defiantly need to relax more. Thankyou

if I can such as sit and watch, reward etc but there are those moments where I know based on how she is that that will not work and so the tug is needed. If I don't do that she just goes from 0-60 in seconds then the control is lost.

No - you absolutely don't need to tug her about.

If she's becoming overstimulated then you need to remove her from the environment before she reaches threshold. That means knowing her limits and walking away before she becomes so overwhelmed that she barks and pulls.

Your old trainer was absolutely correct that you need to walk her at quiet times until she is confident. Then you gradually increase her exposure over time. And yes, that can take months and months if you have a very nervous dog.

If your dog is reacting or at risk of reacting then she's too close.

8 months is a big fear period for them - your police dog trainer should know this if he is qualified. So really minimising stress and fear and ensuring every interaction with other dogs and people are as positive as they can be is critical now. This will shape your future dog. Walk her away from other dogs. Quiet times. Reward her for seeing other dogs and not reacting. Engage disengage is good too. It lowers their emotional response to a stimulus.

@Vanillacupcake33 I think I take a similar approach to you. Reward and praise in most situations. However, in high octane situations, then a gentle tug may be needed. If Riverpup is pulling hard to get to the distraction, such as another dog, then the treat or calling his name doesn’t cut the mustard. You can turn and walk away, but this isn’t always practical.

New programme on Channel 4 next week with qualified dog trainers should be better info being given out on this one. Although the trainers may not have such white teeth at Graeme Hall

Just thought I would stick up for police dog trainers

Police banned shock collars, prong collars in 1999. No fuss just did it. Our government have still not managed to do this.

They have been using clickers for over 20 years - they have moved with the times in training. The training of their scentwork and tracking dogs is all positive reward based.

However the one thing I would say is that police dog handlers do not have a lot of experience with nervous dogs. If the dog was nervous they would not make good police dogs. So handling a nervous dog is very different to handling a confident bomb proof dog.

"A gentle tug" is a paradox.

Pulling on the lead wouldn't work if you were doing it gently, as the dog wouldn't notice and would just carry on with what they were doing. In order to distract the dog, you must be pulling hard enough to cause some kind of discomfort or pain.

It's also worth noting that as well as being unnecessary, tugging and pulling on dogs who wear collars can cause lifelong damage to their throats. It's not something anyone should be doing to their animals.

If you're having to resort to "correction tugs" to get your dog to listen, your dog is already over threshold - which is why treats and positive interrupters don't work. Dogs over threshold won't take treats.

Keeping your dog under threshold is the way to do it. Yes, it takes longer and no, it doesn't make good TV as it can take months to fix - but it works and your dog won't be scared of you or being injured at the same time.

In high octane situations your dog is over threshold so won’t learn. Just remove yourselves to a point they will or completely.

Pain damages relationships. Your dog is less likely to listen to you in lower octane situations as a consequence.

The comment about the trainers teeth made me giggle. My trainer said he doesn't think she's as nervous as we think, he basically thinks that, me mainly has been feeding her anxiety by moving away from a situation as soon as she barks rather than waiting for her to calm then praise. As I'm quite nervous about how others see my dog I suppose that's fed to her in some way. He did say that if he thought she was overly nervous he would not entertain the techniques he uses.

“Under the threshold”

How do I do this? If he sees another dog he’s interested in, or a scent in the woods, then he’ll pull away, and being a 25kg lab (with more growing to do?) is not a lightweight. Can people please advise me?

i appreciate any help, and there’s so much contradictory advice out there. It’s as bad as when you have a newborn baby (and mine were born before the internet became a thing - it was around but information wasn’t available and widespread as it is today).

@coffeecupsandwaxmelts
@Newpeep
@IngGenius

Following scents and reacting to other dogs are two totally different things and need to be dealt with in different ways.

If you see another dog and he reacts, you're too close. Ideally, you need to move away from the other dog before he gets a chance to react - that could mean turning back the way you came, suddenly changing direction or positioning yourself behind a parked car/bush/tree so that he doesn't spot them - or so that he's far enough away that they're not a problem. When he spots them and doesn't react, you need to reward that behaviour.

Unfortunately in the real world, it's not always possible to move away which is why most trainers recommend you walk your dog away from other dogs while you work on their focus/bond with you - then you can move that training into higher-stress situations. Start in the house - work on his focus and getting him to pay attention to you - I like the "touch" command for this. Then you practise in the garden, then in an isolated area outside, then as he succeeds, you can move into busier and busier situations with more and more distractions.

In terms of pulling towards scents - that's normal and dogs should be allowed to sniff and follow their noses (where safe and practical). Does he get plenty of time to just sniff, even if that means you're stood like a lemon for five minutes while he examines a blade of grass? Do you do any scent work with him indoors or in the garden?

I get the temptation to pull them away from yet another sniff/scent but it's so good for their mental health to be allowed to sniff and explore the world around them. If he's taking forever and needs to be moved on, I would use his recall command to get him to focus on you, then reward as you move away and along the path.

I can’t add anything to this. Other than when you train a new behaviour you always proof in the previous level of distraction before moving on.

So house, garden , quiet place, busier place etc. Expect to go back and forwards. Training is a marathon not a sprint.

Ideally you want to avoid situations where they are over threshold. That’s not always possible so just remove them as best you can. This afternoon my confident cat decided to jump the barrier to say ‘hi’ to the puppy. We’re training her to behave calmly around him and she’s doing well. But that wasn’t going to be a training opportunity as it was too stimulating for her so we just removed her quietly whilst we nailed the cat to the wall persuaded him to go elsewhere.

Prevent, manage, train, reinforce.

If she isn't looking back at you, and continues to stare or use stiff body language eg ears up, focused etc, that's when I would move away.

Not sure what you've been advised to use, but I use a double clipped harness with a double clipped lead. It works like horses reins, so not tugging on the neck. I trained my dog on " let's go" when it was quiet, and then if I needed him to move and he wasn't for budging, then I knew he was getting led. I ALWAYS did it in a happy excited voice and rewarded him either treat or toy, or just my voice.

You've nailed it.