Has anyone managed to fix reactivity/aggression to visitors?

[3AndADog]

I’m feeling so down in the dumps about this. DDog is 18 months, and amazing out and about. Confident and friendly, great recall, good lead walking, we have brilliant walks.

at home she’s a work in progress - quite barky at random noises and a little terror for stealing things/counter surfing. a bit of separation anxiety. But the real issue is visitors. Not all visitors, specifically 12 year old boys who are frightened of her. She’s great with most kids. All of my friends are fine. Tradesmen are fine. She always barks at the door but once she’s been indulged with a hello she is anyone’s friend. But my eldest son can’t have his friends over and he’s devastated. She lunges, barks, growls. And it doesn’t stop for the duration of their visit. Even when they go upstairs she paces around barking and looking for them. She’s ok with some of his friends but if they express just an ounce of nervousness she freaks out. She’s never bitten but she gets so over aroused and I have never really thought she would but today I genuinely worried that it might happen.

So This evening we had a boy over and the dog was just terrified, I tried lots of treats, she was on the lead, off the lead, on again, but the boy just kept edging/running away from her and jumping and staring at her with that wide eyed look that scared kids do, and he just looked so frightened poor kid. My son is mortified. She’s only like this with about 3 or 4 of his close friends and the only common thread is that they are all scared of her. But you can’t tell a terrified child to get down and say a nice cuddly hello to a barking snarling dog they are afraid of! I feel like the kids childhoods are being restricted too much by this behaviour.

we are seeing a behaviourist remotely and she has suggested we train her to be on a bed in the garden when visitors arrive and gradually move her safe space/bed closer and then into the house as she gains confidence. Lots of treats and conditioning, along with lots of confidence building games and training calm in the house outside of the situation so that she is prepared with the tools when a visitor does arrive. But I just can’t see this working. It seems like such a real fear in her. No matter how far she is from the visitor all she wants to do is run right up to them. How is being so far away going to help her differentiate between people she likes and people she is scared of? She is on daily anxiety meds already and has situational meds which we are trying out, she had had some this evening preemptively and she was sleeping soundly when they arrived, but clearly did not work a jot in the situation.

on the one hand, I spend 95% of my time happy with our life with this dog but when we have incidents like this I feel so anxious and desperate and I can’t see a way out. I can’t imagine her ever changing and I want my kids as they grow up to be bringing their friends home regularly, I want their home to be their safe place, as it should be!

please can I have some positive success stories? Sorry if I sound melodramatic. I’m really upset and shaken.

Well that’s made me feel a whole lot better, thank you.

I was going to suggest what you have further up. You say she's fine outside so meet them outside then all return to the house together. Still be very wary and make sure the friends aren't in a position where they need to edge away from her etc. perhaps have them go straight upstairs but presumably if she's met them outside and been fine she will relax to the fact they are there? Try it with one of the friends who comes regularly anyway then da might feel happy for others to come if that's successful

I have a giant breed who just wags her tail a bit then lies down to sleep again when visitors arrive at the house. Unfortunately due to her size children who a little won't come near her.

*who are little

As others have suggested, just segregate your dog when you have 12yo kids visiting your house. It will stop your dog getting stressed.

You have done everything sensible. You have sought professional advice. You are not going to allow the dog to meet visitors inside the home as it will increase her reactivity. You have a plan for helping reduce her reactivity with conditioning in safe conditions outside the home. This will take a long time to be effective - think months, just as if you were treating anxiety in humans.

As spring comes it may be easier to keep the dog outside when your son has mates over. Tell your son this is a project you need to work on together. Having a pet means compromises like this. Assuming he wanted a dog that is tough for him.

Growling because she is anxious does not mean she is a terror hell hound who will inevitably bite. It means she is telling you she is anxious so you can protect her from what in her eyes is a nervous scary human (and in their eyes is a nervous scary dog and they are correct, they aren't dog phobic, they just don't like growly dogs which is completely sensible).

People say blunt things on here sometimes. But they reasonably worry that people underestimate the risk dogs pose to humans - clearly lots do given the number of bites happening.

In the nicest way having a dog does mean people will judge you. And unlike having children where a lot of the time ymmv with dogs we just have to suck it up. We don't actually have a right to have our pets hurt or scare people. So whilst I do think you are being sensible it isn't Mumsnet's job to make you feel good about this. You do just have to suck it up.

She lunges, barks, growls. And it doesn’t stop for the duration of their visit. Even when they go upstairs she paces around barking and looking for them. She’s ok with some of his friends but if they express just an ounce of nervousness she freaks out. She’s never bitten but she gets so over aroused and I have never really thought she would but today I genuinely worried that it might happen.

I really hope it has become clear to you that you cannot use your children's friends to try to "train" your dog. It's terrifying for all concerned and it's not working anyway. And if shutting her away makes it worse, then you need her to be elsewhere for the entire duration of their visit.

Crate for a short visit , soft muzzle for a longer visit but allow him to meet and be around the visitor so that next time he can be around them unmuzzled

We have a dog who was getting upset as people come into the house so we did quite a lot of research on this as we thought it was getting worse. He’d growl as people came in, that was all, but still. What we found was:

Don’t lock them away, it will make them worse
Let them see (at a safe and restrained distance) the person coming in
Get that person to throw them a treat and keep at a distance.

In your situation I’d then get the person to hang around for a minute, at a restrained distance, and then go. Chucking the odd piece of cheese.

But do not allow anyone within biting distance. It’s not fair on anyone.

@villainousbroodmare I don't think anyone is suggesting the children should try to train the dog. Only adults can be responsible for the dog. And in any event you cannot train a dog not to be frightened. You can condition a calm response to a trigger which she currently finds frightening. The only way to do this is by providing ltd exposure under control outside the home to enable the dog to experience feeling calm and safe even in the environment of the trigger. This needs to stop if the dog shows any sign of tension, so initially might be the other end of the garden or other side of the park. The OP is fearful it might never work. It probably will but it is a really long slow process. In the meantime exposure in the home cannot happen as it will just retrigger the dog (and human anxieties).

The OP is worried about bites which are always a risk although it sounds as if she is closely supervising the dog inside. But the bigger worry is if this carries on without the dog learning even nervous people are safe the dog will just continue to get more reactive and just generally be miserable and barky. Much better to intervene calmly and confidently now to show the dog that nervous people are not scary people.

I really hope it has become clear to you that you cannot use your children's friends to try to "train" your dog. It's terrifying for all concerned and it's not working anyway

Training doesn't happen overnight - it can take months - so saying " it's not working
anyway" isn't exactly accurate.

The dog will never get used to visitors if she's never exposed to them. Proper training (with a muzzle if necessary) doesn't put anyone in danger.

And if shutting her away makes it worse, then you need her to be elsewhere for the entire duration of their visit.

So for the next 10-15 years, the dog is just never supposed to have any training around visitors and should just be banned instead? That's not a solution- it's just avoiding the problem won't make things any better for anyone long-term.

There’s a FB group called Dog Training Advice and Support which has brilliant resources and professionals who offer advice. It recommends positive reinforcement and has really helped me with some reactivity issues previously.
I put my dog on his bed with a high value, long lasting treat when people come round.

My last dog (rescue at 6 months) was very FA towards people, us included. She was fine as long as she wasn’t touched. We worked hard and were able to touch her eventually as were some of our family.

If we had children around or visited children or people who could not be trusted to leave her alone then she was crated or shut away with a nice chew for her safety.

Crate training takes a good few months but can be really helpful as they do tend to see it as their safe space. It was a game changer for our dog.

You need in house help not remote. You can change her emotional response with food, care and keeping sub threshold but it’s also going to be management, sort term if not long term.

If I was your trainer I’d be looking at food, exercise and her general day in terms of mental enrichment and confidence building generally to help alongside specific training. Punishment by withdrawing attention or food or ghastly things like growling at them (really?) will make things worse but I think you get that.

Ok some new messages to go through…
I would never ever leave her unattended with child guests, but I don’t feel her to be a bite risk to any of my own children or 90% of their/our friends, and when she is scared of a visitor she is always on a lead with me at the other end of the room. But she does charge and lunge and growl and that is what I’m trying to work on. Proactively and with a behaviourist. And I know it will take months.

My point of asking on here was to hear some positive stories of this being overcome. I know it will take months.

The main issue with shutting her away/keeping her in the garden is that she will want to run to the place where the visitor is. Behind closed doors she will scrabble to get to them. I’m not against containment but it fires her up even more and can only imagine it makes her think there really is something to be afraid of.

Anyway, I am composing a big long email to the behaviourist ahead of our next session to try and clarify the plan so I can really work on it. The other things she has helped us with (separation anxiety, general hyper jumping behaviour) are really improving so I do think she knows what she is talking about.

@3AndADog
Sorry for not getting back to you, I couldn't find the AD visitor protocol - your behaviourist should have info/ a link to it (we've had sessions too 😉)
What has helped us is getting ddog used to being popped in another room when there is no visitor, then me being in another room with her when we have a visitor and building up to her alone in another room when there is a visitor. We are definitely making progress. Previously she would have barked the house down being shut away, even if someone was with her. Now I can pop out of the room for short periods and she stays calm.
It is hard, it's not a quick fix and it does put me off having people round. I can see progress though!

Apparently the dog is fine around almost all visitors except for some children who are frightened of her. The scenario described vividly by the OP will make everyone's fear much worse and it is grossly inappropriate that a frightened child should be used in any form whatsoever to try and teach someone else's dog something.
OP's own child has a right to the peaceful enjoyment of his home and to be able to invite his friends without them being scared or risking injury. They should absolutely not be asked to participate in any desensitization attempts.
If this dog is barking and scrabbling to get to them, then that's not fun or relaxing or even safe for them, and quite counter-productive for her. So when the kid has mates over, it would be far better for all concerned if the dog were out on a long hike.

coffeecupsandwaxmelts you didn't read the thread very well.

Training doesn't happen overnight - it can take months - so saying " it's not working anyway" isn't exactly accurate. but it's way over her reactivity threshold and so it is quite harmful to the cause.

The dog will never get used to visitors if she's never exposed to them.
The dog is apparently fine with most visitors but people who are scared of her have the right not to be lunged and barked at; how often are they there? Once or twice a week?

Yes, it’s about once a week but obviously as he enters his teenage years I’d love for him and his friends to hang out at ours whenever they like.

no, no child should be used for training purposes and I would never suggest that. All I wanted was success stories. I am intending to desensitise at a distance using the garden initially and then the utility room. Obviously I want to keep her under threshold but that’s my main concern as I know she will be reactive even at a distance, if she sees a visitor enter the house. I am under instruction to promote calm at every arrival, so even when DH/close family arrive I take her to her bed and she sits calmly with a treat - this in itself is massive improvement.
dont want to get defensive but of course I want my kid to be comfortable and safe in his own home and that is exactly why I am getting so her up about this.

@villainousbroodmare this is exactly what we currently try to do but obviously can’t do this at random times of the weekday eg after school when I have two other school to entertain, or in the evenings when we have chores/other kids bedtimes to be getting on with. The dog is only 18months, surely it’s not unreasonable to hope we can get to a place where she can cope with visitors while she’s still young, or should she be out hiking every few days for the rest of her life? (I mean obviously she gets a decent cliff walk every day anyway, but we fit it in to suit our schedule)

i think the idea is that if I can reduce the excitement of all arrivals, then any visitor should become a non event to her, she doesn’t need to be interested in anyone who comes to the house.

Could you send the dog to day care on the days your son would like to have friends over? Hopefully short term solution.
Son needs to feel be is above the dog in the pecking order ! (Lighthearted)

OP: why is your confident, friendly dog on daily anxiety meds?

Not being sarky - I just see this as potentially offering some useful information here.

I think you're the one who hasn't read the thread as you'll see I wrote a long post upthread about OP introducing everyone on neutral ground and then moving into the home once the dog is calm.

If this is done consistently and property, there's no need for the dog to be over threshold or for children to be lunged and barked at. A muzzled dog on a lead that's controlled by an adult isn't putting anyone in any danger.

Okay, it's not pleasant to be barked at but if OP's son wants to be able to have his friends over without issue, he's old enough to understand that training will need to take place first.

@SirSniffsAlot for separation anxiety. But point taken, yes obviously has it in her to be anxious. She’s confident and friendly out and about - in shops, cafe’s, school gates, on walks etc. Nervy and barky at home.