Any advice accepted elderly dog and thinking about PTS ( not today but when )

[BasiliskStare]

Our eldest dog is 15 in 4 weeks time. ( Border Terrier ) . 3 months ago Dh thought he had had a stroke as he was wandering in circles and his head was to one side - took him vet & it wasn't. He had some tablets and got very much better . I don't think it is Cognitive dysfunction but something similar - not a BT thing just and elderly dog thing.

He is not in pain ( except when he his patted round his head and his mouth - his teeth are bad but though he has been before to get them cleaned under GA the vet said he is a bit old to go under a GA now - they would not recommend it - so he gets wet food & eats it )

He will chase a ball in the park

But he has started just stopping where he is and weeing or pooing where he stops ( ie indoors) He has gone deaf I am sure of that. His eyes don't look quite right , a bit filmy . He is getting very grumpy .

My view is until he looks or sounds in pain we keep him going as long as he can & just deal with the rest of it.

Does anyone have any better advice. We will be so sad to lose him but I am of the opinion as long as he is eating and will go for a walk and we know his mouth is sore & he can't hear or see as well and take account of that we will just live with his agedness.

Is there anything else I should out for in an elderly dog & if not upsetting - what made you make the decision.

Be in no doubt I will be taking him to the vet so not going to diagnose him via the internet but just interested if people can say what made you think the end was really nigh rather than the inconveniences of old age. ?

I really do apologise if this upsets anyone - do report it if so & get it taken down

Basilisk

Am so so sorry, we had to take our beloved 15 yo dog to be pts in similar circumstances. Its heart breaking. I really think the toileting inside was a big factor. We putt it off and put it off, neither of us wanted to ve the one to make the call.
We did know ddog wasn't Happy and knew it was the final proper act of love We had to do. So I ended up driving home from work one night and just went into vet on passing and booked us in for the next day. (Am actually crying writing this now) I hated HATED doing it but knew had to as Ddog in reality had no quality of life. Sorry am rambling so don't know if any help!

You sound lovely op and your dog sounds like a wonderful soil
You are thinking about all the right things and yes it's heartbreaking..

Yes. We had similar just before Christmas. Ddog had the filmy eye, and we knew he had liver problems, etc. What made us make the decision was when we could see he was in pain - he was arching his back and was grumpy and unhappy - not like him at all. He was on the max pain relief. We probably kept him going for a couple of weeks longer than we should. When DH looked at the last photos of him later and saw his arched back, he got really upset and said he knew at the time, but couldn't face making that decision. We got the vet out and Ddog fell asleep on the sofa in DH's arms.
I'm so sorry. It's bloody awful. If you can't be sure his teeth aren't giving him pain, then that would be the time, on top of everything else, I think.

I’m so sorry, it is incredibly hard when it gets to this point. With my two there wasn’t really a choice after a swift decline. I didn’t understand it until I was there, but i found that I just knew it was time. My girl was poorly and making a mess, but happy until she wasn’t. Possibly not helpful, but trust your instincts and take care

My daughter's a vet and we've talked about this kind of thing as ours dogs have aged. Firstly she's always adamant that it's very difficult to tell if a dog's in pain, and secondly I remember her words a couple of days before our last old boy was PTS.... "Better a day too soon than a day too late" x

It's so hard and you have all my sympathies. We've just gone through it with our beloved Dalmatian, albeit a bit younger (he was almost 12). Making that decision was so very painful but I knew he'd had enough. He was tired. I don't think he was suffering... he was still eating a little and went for a last gentle walk before we left for the vets with his tail wagging slowly but I wanted him to go before he did start to suffer ❤️ I held him as he went to sleep and he laid his head on my arm. The last thing he saw was my face and the last thing he heard was my voice telling him what a very, very good boy he was.

Talk to your vet, he or she will guide you in the right direction.

From experience, if you can I'd pay extra for the vet to come out and pts at home. It's the best case scenario for you and him.

Hi op we put our beloved 15 year old to sleep a few weeks ago in similar circumstances. He was incontinent and struggling with mobility but still eating and short walks etc. we made the decision in the end because he had little quality. Two things helped:
The first was looking back at him in healthy happy times and realising how far away he was from his love of life. He was grumpy and in hindsight was probably more uncomfortable than we realised.
The second thing was the thought that euthanasia is about a peaceful passing. In my mind, waiting for a crisis to come is likely to give the dog a painful end and it was better for us to have a peaceful passing with some happiness left and to cuddle him goodbye. He ate about 50 of his favourite treats before being pts and was gently snoring as he went. Good luck, it is heartbreaking but we just knew that he wasn’t himself in the end.

I’m so sorry. This is such a hard thing to go through. We had our old boy pts when he took a sudden turn for the worse. I just knew it would be unkind to let him go on any longer. It was still incredibly difficult- we took him for a last walk and nobody would have known anything was wrong.
He loved treats so I fed him some pieces of chicken from my hand, gave him cuddles, and then he went to sleep. He wasn’t afraid. It will be hard for you, but you’ll know that it was the right thing to do.

He’s in pain

the pooing/seeing where he stands suggests that the nerves to his bowel and bladder are being squeezed by arthritic changes in the spine.
his teeth are painful

Is he on pain relief? He really needs to be - my dog has similar issues - he’s on 3 different types of meds and will happily walk 6 miles a day at 15 years old - but I know his pain is well managed.

or you should euthanise

Speaking from personal experience, you must know when it is time. I can't explain how you know. You just do. If you are thinking up reasons not to, then you missed the time. Each of my dogs had "told" me when they've had enough, and that has always cued a day at most of ridiculous treats and cuddles for them.

I'm sorry OP, I know this is very hard.

Sadly it does sound like your dog is in pain. Going to the toilet where he is, is a sign of pain.

His teeth are painful. The "grumpiness" is also a sign of pain.

I say this gently, but I think you need to speak to your vet again about pain management or else consider that it may be time. Sometimes dogs will continue to eat or chase a ball despite pain.

As the saying goes.....be a week too early than a day too late.

Oh op, this made me cry, we lost our border terrier almost 4 weeks ago, he was 14 and 4 months.

They are such a hardy little breed, for my boy I knew I would have to make the hardest decision for him, he didn't stop eating or take to his bed, he would carry on for the rest of his days to please us.

I hate to say it but I think it's his time, he won't be happy going to the toilet in the house. You've done amazingly to get him to a grand old age, he's clearly loved very much.

Very much agree with this, having to lift and transport your beloved dog when they're in pain is so horrible.

Oh thank you all - I appreciate all your opinions and it has brought a tear to my eye.

I don't want to lose this little fellow. DS won't countenance him being put down whilst he is not whimpering / howling. But I just do not know how to tell when the dog is not enjoying his life.

He will go for walks - he will chase a ball ( but slow ) He will eat ( but wet food ) so there is such where we think he is OK. But the onset of some incontinence is new as is the grumpiness. We have put him on our bed on his own blanket but he can no longer jump down which he used to do like a gazelle. He has to be lifted.

I am so loathe to have him put to sleep where there is some hope for him but because I do not speak dog - he can't tell me whether he is comfortable or not ( and BTs are - according to vet ) a hardy breed who don't whinge. I have met an 18 year old one.

I think the problem will be DS who won't even discuss it. DH thinks he is fine for the while - so to some extent I think I am going to be the "bad one" for suggesting it . & be in no doubt I love the dog - I am not looking to get rid of him but I think maybe I am being the most realistic one.

I think what I am going to do is monitor him & if he has another episode like the stroke thing or he gets more grumpy or more incontinent over the next couple of months I will take him to vet again. Ds & DH aren't silly - if the vet says it is the right time - they will go with that - I just suspect they will leave it until the last moment

Thank you for those who said better a week too early than a week too late ( I paraphrase . )

Friend of mine sent me this poets.org/poem/power-dog

I'm so sorry about your lovely dog but it sounds very much like he's already struggling.

He has tooth pain, he's losing his eyesight, he's becoming incontinent and has had already had an episode of confusion (which from my experience does sound very much like cognitive dysfunction).

I know it's really horrible to think about when they can still eat and play but believe me, you don't want to leave it until they can't do any of those things.

Oh OP I feel for you. I've had to PTS both of my elderly cats within the last few months and it was rough on both times, although the one who was like your old lad, struggling, but not an emergency, was by far the worst. The only thing that made me feel 'better' (not really, but you'll see what I mean) is that a week after the first one passed, I was in the vets and they were on the phone to a man who had a dog clearly in the background. The man had booked multiple PTS appointments and had cancelled each time, saying it was too soon. He then ended up with a dog who was very definitely in pain. Please don't let your DS/DH delay to this point. Our beloved pets need us to consider them and only them, not our own guilt about putting them to sleep; we need to put our feelings completely aside. If your boy is in pain and just not enjoying life, you're not extending it for him, you're extending it to save the feelings of humans. Love to you all x

I read something that vets say. Think of the 5 things the dog really loves doing, if they are still liking doing 3 of them, then carry on, but when it comes it just liking doing 2 things then it’s time to start preparing yourselves. Looks like your dog is still eating well, going for walks and playing ball a little.

*But he has started just stopping where he is and weeing or pooing where he stops ( ie indoors) He has gone deaf I am sure of that. His eyes don't look quite right , a bit filmy . He is getting very grumpy .

My view is until he looks or sounds in pain we keep him going as long as he can & just deal with the rest of it*

I'm sorry to say he's already in pain. Those are classic signs of pain. Changes in behaviour, staring at the wall, pooing wherever and pain in his teeth. If you get to the point he is whimpering or howling then it will be excruciating pain. Dogs don't make a big fuss.

He's never going to get better than he is right now. Don't leave him until his quality of life has completely gone.

I think now, while it isn’t totally awful, is the right time. I’d be seriously asking your son how he could bear to wait until the dog is ‘howling and whimpering’ in obvious agony when he has the choice to end it before it goes past ‘regular’ pain. I mean living with constant mouth pain, blind, deaf, unable to enjoy life so always ‘grumpy.’ I think it takes a lot more love to override your own wish to keep him.

My 15 year old dog has some of these symptoms and much to my surprise, has been greatly helped by supplements from Vince the Vet. My other dog, also 15, has arthritis and had got to the point where prescription medication stopped working. I tried her on a different Vince the Vet supplement and she's now running round like a puppy. I feel conflicted by this because I don't really believe in supplements, but the difference in both dogs is very marked.

If you can get the tooth pain under control then these supplements might make the rest of their lives much more enjoyable.

@BasiliskStare sorry to be blunt but Your dog is showing very clear signs of pain

he can’t eat hard food as his mouth is painful
he can’t jump on the bed as his hips are painful
he can’t control his toileting as his spine has painful arthritis
he’s grumpy because he’s painful

what else do you reasonably think is causing these changes? They don’t just happen spontaneously.

I appreciate you aren’t ready to make a euthanasia decision yet but please please don’t leave him to suffer and continue deteriorating in order to make your decision-making easier - that’s putting human preferences before an elderly dog’s welfare. Please at least ask your vet about pain relief for him.

It's time to have him PTS. He's clearly in pain and he sounds miserable. His quality of life sounds very poor. I know how difficult it is having been there many times but you have to do what's best for him. Dogs do not fear or contemplate death as humans do so you are there is no benefit to them in waiting until they're suffering terribly and things are bad enough as they are. Your DS's feelings are completely irrelevant when it comes to letting a dog suffer because he's not ready to say goodbye. That's not love. That's selfishness.

To all - thank you so much. Please don't think for selfish reasons we are going to keep this dog alive - not at all - we do know that the sadness will be all ours and eldest basilisk dog won't know what is happening - we do know that.

As is happens I have just had a reminder ( 2 eldest dogs get a 6 monthly check up from the vet ) could not have happened at a better time . So I will book them in and see what the vet says.

Thank you all for your advice. It is better to hear it than not. & I will say re DS if the vet says dog's life is at its end and better to gently send him to sleep - he will not argue - I know that - he is not selfish - perhaps a bit head in the sand. Just that in many ways he ( Dog) is OK but he is not a whinger so as I say - I wish I could speak dog.

I cannot tell you how much I appreciate all your comments. I will take the vet's advice - I am not going to diagnose Basilisk Dog over the internet but I just wanted to hear some opinions from those who have been through it. If the vet says he can get through a it longer with some medication ( as long as he is not suffering ) I will go with that. If the vet ( same one for 15 years ) says it is time you thought about this - I will go with that.

A friend of mine had her terrier PTS recently which is what made me think more. Going blind / going deaf / not interested in walks / lost appetite / incontinent & she said - It was time for him. My dog still has an appetite and still enjoys his walks & will chase a ball ( his favourite thing ) & today went to sit by the back door to go out for a wee . but she made me think . Which is why I posted.

It's hard but we will do the best thing by Basilisk Dog. I promise you that.

Thank you all for your comments. It is so helpful to hear other people's experiences .

Basilisk 🐾💐