4 month old in crate - getting worse?

[Jeni1206]

Hi all, we have a 4 month old, been with us a few weeks now. The nights are getting worse rather than better it seems - is this to be expected at all? He barks for a good hour non stop, then settles but still barks on and off. He is taken out for a wee about 2-3am ish, then barks for another hour (sometimes more) when put back in. And then on and off till 6am ish when we get up.

The first week we had him we had some much quieter nights. Now it is consistently like this. The crate is small enough, he has his meals in there etc.

I've never used a crate before, and to be honest I would be happy to have him upstairs with me, but was using the crate to try and help with potty training (he still needs to go in the night it seems). I'm worried if I bring him upstairs now, he'll just wee all over my bedroom in the night.

Any advice would be amazing, we are very sleep deprived, struggling, and even having to keep kids off school today due to being so exhausted.

Could he be cold?

Do you have mice which could be disturbing him?

You could try cover the crate with a blanket to make it cozier for him.

One of us slept downstairs on a blow up mattress next to the crate for the first 2-3 weeks..if she woke we just quietly settled her and she knew we were there.. we are now doing this again with an older rescue but thinking it will take longer as re learning old habits.. we ALL get more sleep and it worked really well.

Thank for replies, much appreciated,

Yes we have added a blanket draped over the top but this didn't seem to make any difference. He has a soft bed and blankets in there.

No mice but I guess there could be other noises from outside.

We have not slept downstairs with him - so could try this.

Either sleep with him downstairs or take the crate to your room. Ours sleeps 8 - 9 hours a night through in a crate by our bed and has done since she was 9 weeks (now 5 months)

They are babies. They need you for weeks and months. Leaving them to cry just teaches them to be distressed alone. Great if you want future problems with separation anxiety and general training.

We take our pup to bed when tired, let her have a wander around the bedroom then lights out and she takes herself off to her crate and we shut the door and get some sleep. So she isn't really aware of being confined (which is scary for the vast majority of dogs) but is confined in case she needs the loo in the night. She will cry not wander off and wee.

Some nights she needs a hand in to reassure her - that tends to be if woken by noises. Most nights she sleeps right through.

Crate training is really a different thing to night time sleeping and takes months to do properly and they really only get it properly when older and more confident. I know people do it but they either are extremely lucky or they don't understand that a dog can be distressed without making a noise. A quiet dog is not always a happy dog!

Thanks again.
So you think maybe keep in crate, but try moving up to our room?
I'm happy to do this but was worried he would still bark like mad and it would be even louder for the kids. I would hope that being close to us might stop the barking but right now I don't have much confidence it would!

That's what I would do, yes. But bear in mind if he's been distressed in the crate then he'll be reluctant now. You may be lucky though. You may need to leave the crate open and pen an area. It would be a bit trial and error.

My suggestion as someone who doesn't want a dog on the bed is to lay down by the crate for the first few nights until he happily goes in on his own then shut the door once he's down and get into bed. At his age he will probably wake again for a wee so take him down then then pop him back to his crate to sleep. I'd put a pillow on the floor, get comfy in my dressing gown and just wait for him to go in. When he's doing it reliably then you can try moving further away, on the bed etc. Puppies is about creating routine and habit.

You'll need to puppy proof your bedroom. Make it really boring and the most comfortable and nicest place is his crate right beside you. Choices are a much more powerful and reliable behaviour than telling them what to do.

I'll bet he'll sleep better though. He just needs you. Be prepared for that for a good few months yet.

His food shouldn't be in the crate with him. This will encourage him to pee or mess in the crate and that's distressing as it's their safe space.
I would do some crate training during the day. Put him in his crate, and whilst he's quiet tears with a little treat. Keep doing that and every time he goes in and is quiet tears again. Then put in crate, shit the door and leave the room. Always reward but ONLY when they're quiet otherwise when he barks he'll think you're rewarding the noise.

If the crate is already downstairs DO NOT move it upstairs, that's going backwards.
You just need to reward for quiet behaviour in the crate. It'll work but will take a day or two.
Feed no later than 6 and make sure they go out for regular wee / poop after that and then toilet just before you go to bed and then straight in the crate. Switch off all the lights so they know it's bedtime x

Sorry, just a note. We picked up our puppy at 11 weeks and she was sleeping in her crate, all night, quietly within 2 weeks with the training above.
It absolutely works. Now (she's 6 months) we just say "in there" and she goes straight in no bother x

Have a look at dog training advice and support on FB for this. Never leave a pup to cry.

It’s not going backwards. It’s a baby animal who needs company. You can’t reward quiet in the crate if the dog is panicking. Try learning a new song whilst having a panic attack. Stressed animals don’t learn. That’s science. You dog may have been fine. This one isn’t. Most are not. Rescues pick up puppies at 6 months because their owners tried all this and it didn’t work. My last dog was one of these pups handed in. She slept with us for months after we adopted her. She was then slowly moved out at her pace and went on to sleep and stay away from us very happily wherever we were. Sometimes crated sometimes not. Not a hint of SA. We were with her 24/7 until she became confident.

letting them cry is really outdated and damaging advice.

Thanks again all for replies - so appreciated. I do understand there are different schools of thought and obviously what works in one situation may be different to another.

Shoemadlady - we feed dinner at 4:30, but he does not always do a number 2 after. This is annoying as it definitely makes for an even worse night when he hasn't gone. We take him out repeatedly but he just doesn't always need to (till middle of the night that is!)

Wolfiefan - I'm not on FB but will join to see the pages you mention.

NewPeep - I would rather have him with me to be honest, I have no problem with this and it would be better for my wellbeing too - hearing him bark and cry has made me feel quite ill at times. It is just the fact that he is not going through the night yet (still seems to need at least one toilet trip - does this just stop happening at some point?), which made us think crate was better (eg. more likely to hold it till gets outside).

He was very slightly more settled last night - still bad but maybe a very small improvement in time spent barking. We think we will give it another few nights and then re-evaluate.

Our pup has slept through the night since she was 12 weeks. She’s now 22 weeks. She tends to need the loo only if she wakes due to other reasons. That’s happened twice. Once was when we were staying away in a city and it’s much nosier than at home. Once was NYE when there were fireworks at 3 am!

The better they sleep the less they are likely to wake for anything. I really can’t see how a young pup would be genuinely fine on their own and sleep well which they need to in order to develop normally. Like children. They are cognitively very similar to them.

I’m really not sure why if you want him with you you’re not doing it. I’m guessing you’ve been given outdated advice about separation being good for them. It’s not at this age. It just causes stress and upset and resentment. Puppies are hard enough without needless lack of sleep.

Teaching them to be ok alone comes further down the line when they’ve developed a bond, trust you’re not going to put them in a situation they can’t handle and have matured enough to understand it. A lot of that comes naturally. Some of it needs help.

A crate won’t encourage them to hold it if they can’t. It will encourage them to wake you instead of wandering off for a wee in the night. Our pup is crated but our room. It just stops her wandering off and having a wee if she wakes (which she tends not to). If his last meal is 4.30 then he probably needs a mid evening snack as that’s a long time to go for a puppy.

Ours gets a small stuffed kong (puppy meat, a bit of kibble) a couple of hours before bed. We make sure she’s awake then until bed time so she’s tired enough to sleep through.

Sorry NewPeep, that's what I meant - encourage him to wake us when he needs to go, rather than wander off and go somewhere he chooses!
I'm just worried the barking and crying will continue even in crate in our room, and will then disturb everyone even more, but we will try if no further improvement.

If he’s tired, fed, watered and relaxed it won’t.

Because he’s been distressed for a while it’s probably not going to be straightforward as he’s formed negative associations with it. You may need to pen an area around the crate and let him sleep in there with the door open for a while. You may initially need to be in the pen while he settles.

You may need to be by the crate for a few nights to help him settle. That’s trial and error really. I don’t know your house set up. My advice from someone whose mental health significantly deteriorates with lack of sleep is do what works to keep him relaxed and calm and sleeping for a while. Just all of you get some sleep. Then worry about long term.

It is worth making sure he’s tired before bed so cuddles, play abandoned something calming like a kong or lickmat to wind down. As above we let ours crash downstairs for 10 minutes or so before taking her out to the loo then up to bed.

As others have said take the crate upstairs, ours slept in his crate next to the bed,he would wake between two and three, would come in for a cuddle as he wouldn't settle back down. Then we eeked it out to 6am, by using an alarm, so when the alarm sounded her knew it was time to wake up.

By 6 month's he was dry through the night and had free roam of downstairs area to sleep. Never had any issues since. It takes time, and some sleep deprivation 😫

Thanks Wonderland - that sounds like a good plan.

This is probably silly question, but when people say their puppy no longer needed to go in the night - does this just sort of suddenly happen? They just stop asking to go out in the middle of the night, all of their own accord?

For the first two weeks I got up at 3 am, took her out, plonked her on the gras and she weed then straight back to bed until 7 am ish. Then I started setting an alarm 30 minutes later each night and took her out. Once we got to 6 am I stopped and she normally goes until 6.45 when the heating comes on. But you can just leave them to ask - that’s fine too. They will go later and later then stop.

Is 4:30 his last meal as that’s a long time to go overnight without food for what is still a young puppy ? I also wouldn’t leave him to bark , it’s no different really to leaving a baby to cry , he isn’t barking to annoy you , he’s barking because something is wrong albeit that may just be that he doesn’t want to be alone .

4.30 seems quite early for a last meal, so yes he could be getting hungry. Ours was fed 7.00, 13.30, 18.30 and poo’d 6.45, 14.00 & 20.30ish - yes, we kept a chart at one point!

As far as waking up at night goes, she has always been in a crate in our bedroom without any problems. The first couple of weeks she whined in the night to go for a wee, but it phased out quite quickly once we got a routine. Now she’ll wake us up on a weekend morning when she wants to go out but otherwise has slept through from about 10 weeks.

The only exception was during the Christmas period when her routine was changed & she did need to go out at night on a couple of occasions.

Thanks for input.
I do an early dinner as she often takes quite a while to go to the toilet afterwards. I feel if I fed much later we would be guaranteed her needing a number 2 in the early hours. I feed him then because - hopefully - he will go by 11ish. But even then its not guaranteed. I could try pushing it a bit later and see if makes any difference.

His other meals are at 7am, and midday. He scoffs everything. He does have treats throughout the day to reinforce toilet training, and a chew stick.

Sorry - not sure why I've changed him to a female there for half of that message! Blame sleep deprivation!