4 month old in crate - getting worse?

[Jeni1206]

Hi all, we have a 4 month old, been with us a few weeks now. The nights are getting worse rather than better it seems - is this to be expected at all? He barks for a good hour non stop, then settles but still barks on and off. He is taken out for a wee about 2-3am ish, then barks for another hour (sometimes more) when put back in. And then on and off till 6am ish when we get up.

The first week we had him we had some much quieter nights. Now it is consistently like this. The crate is small enough, he has his meals in there etc.

I've never used a crate before, and to be honest I would be happy to have him upstairs with me, but was using the crate to try and help with potty training (he still needs to go in the night it seems). I'm worried if I bring him upstairs now, he'll just wee all over my bedroom in the night.

Any advice would be amazing, we are very sleep deprived, struggling, and even having to keep kids off school today due to being so exhausted.

Hello, thanks again for all the helpful messages last week. I appreciate them all so much.

Quick update in case anyone else is going through anything similar - we did move the crate up to bedroom but he was more distressed than ever - I think seeing us there actually made him worse! He therefore has now ended up on blanket next to our bed. This has stopped any barking and crying (which is great) BUT we now have the problem of him going to the toilet in our room at night. To combat this we are now taking him outside at the first sign of any noise but this means we have gone from 1 toilet trip a night to 3 or 4 (he doesn't always go each time, but we have to check as we are so nervous he will go on carpet!). He completly ignores newpaper/puppy pads etc.

So we have swapped one problem for another, and no better sleep for us really. But it is nice to not have the all night barking.I just have to hope he can learn to go all night sooner rather than later so we can relax a bit more.

Yes it's likely to be worse to begin with as there is now a negative association with the crate. You could just leave the door open for now and pen around it with a bit of lino so it's easy to clean up. Over time you may be able to shut the door when he is asleep. That will then rebuild the crate is for sleep association and no stress. Forget it in the day.

Could you and pup sleep downstairs closer to the door? Won’t stop you being woken but will make toilet trips easier and quicker!

Thanks both for your suggestions.

NewPeep - a pen would be great but I just don't think there is any chance, he will still feel 'shut in'. I do wish we'd done that from the start though.

Wolfiefan - I have considered this but my youngest child still wakes in the night and I need to be close to him ideally.

@Jeni1206
Crates should be a safe space that a dog chooses to settle in - is that how you’re using yours?
because it sounds more like you’re locking away a distressed dog?

how did you introduce the crate? Did you build up time in it gradually? Is it dark and covered? Does she eat there? Does she have everything she needs in there? Are you letting her out ever 3-4 hours for the toilet?

cleverdogcompany.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Crates-and-Indoor-Kennels.pdf

www.apbc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/APBC-Advice-4-Using-an-Indoor-Kennel.pdf

www.humanesociety.org/resources/crate-training-101

Poor dog!!! What a shitty way to treat them!

The first night our pup was crated in our room at the bottom of the bed; he cried on and off. When DH went to work about 5am I pulled the crate up next to me and from that minute on never heard a peep out of him at night.
Eventually brought a basket up and he sleeps in that.. if DH is away he sleeps on the bed. They're just like babies IMO they need reassurance and company.
My daughter has a dog that she slept with downstairs for the first night only and he was fine after that..you never can tell.

I’d definitely put his crate near you, you’re his family & he wants to be near. I’m sure he’ll then settle.

Hi Fur and Feathers, thanks for your message.
We were told pup was crate trained, slept all night in etc etc, but once with us, that didn't seem to be the case! It certainly is not the 'safe place' it should be - he seems to hate it! He is fed in there etc and with everything he needs, but never goes in of his own choosing.

Due to the distress he was showing, we have the last few nights taken to just letting him sleep on blanket/in a dog bed up with us, not in crate. I know some will say that is the wrong thing and we should have persevered, but we were at our wits end. But now have the problem of him being able to wander off and toilet on our bedroom carpet. Yes - let him out 4 times last night, didn't go every time but were being very cautious. Puppy pads don't seem to register with him (I know some people warn against these but right now I would be more than happy if he would go on them tbh!). He is 4 months.

How about you kipping right beside the pen so you can put your hand through to reassure him? It’s not forever. It’s just to reassure him he’s ok and you’re there.

Crates are fabulous but as you’ve found if they are not introduced correctly they can be a really awful thing for a dog. Awake time crating takes months to build up. Night time can be quick but only if you are careful not to allow pup to feel trapped.

Thanks also been and done it and Stardolphins, would be very happy to have crate next to bed so can give even more reassurance, but unfortunately due to size of bedroom, can't fit crate right next to bed. It had been at the end of the bed instead.

I have a 5 month old pup, she's a biewer terrier so toy breed. I had her crate next to me and continued to do that until she was happy ( I then removed the crate and she sleeps on our bed now ).

As pp's have said your pup is just lonely and needs you, it's true they are like babies.

Sorry you are so sleep deprived but if one of you was next to pup or even put the crate next to your bed so they know you are there I think that would help massively.

It’s not the wrong thing to do to have him in bed. He needs you. With him and you having experienced the distress you have anything that guarantees a good secure sleep is what is needed.

Can you lay on the floor by the open crate until pup goes in and then shut the door when he’s asleep? That’s what we do. So pup get a nice bit of fuss in her crate when she’s dropping off then door is shut. She’s let out before she realises she’s shut in. No fuss. No trauma.

He’s a baby at 16 weeks old, he can’t go from 4.40pm to 7am without food, let alone sleep through the night.
Our two years old rescue came to us at his age and it was at least 2 months before she was completely toilet trained by day but still needed to go out once or twice at night. She refused to go in a crate so slept in the kitchen, comfortable bed, puppy pads just in case.
By 7 months she was sleeping all night, 12 hours some nights. Feeding wise, she’s now on 2 meals a day, 8am and roughly 6pm. Water available at all times.

Ours went through the night from 12 weeks. 8 hours. Small breed. So they can but not all do. We do have the occasional middle of the night wake up but it’s rare.

NewPeep - thanks so much again for your helpful advice. I have tried this, but just could not get him to stay in when door open. I feel that our crate ship has sailed to be honest, its just not for him. He may have had a bad experience before he came to us, I just don't know. Or maybe we've just done it all wrong!

CoffeeandTiaMaria - I am not expecting him to go through the night at all at this age. I was just updating that he is now out of crate, but we have had to up the nightime toilet breaks from 1 to about 4 since this has happened, due to concern he would wee all over our room! It sounds like you had a nice set up in the kitchen. Unfortunately ours doesn't use puppy pads.

Awww poor chap. I crate trained my last dog (older rescue who needed her own space) and to do it properly and build time and value took me a year so I am always sceptical of people who say they are 'crate trained' that early. It usually involved forcing which is not how it should be done at all.

It sounds like you have found a happy medium (there is always a compromise) so hopefully you can enjoy each other now :) The night time toilets should get less and actually when he settles down and becomes less stressed at night you may well find it happens quickly.

Can you restrict him to a room with a hard floor overnight?

no pup is crate trained at 8 weeks! Where did you get him from?

if he won’t stay in with the door open and won’t go in voluntarily then I think I’d look at alternatives like a playpen or small room with a hard floor.

Also make sure you’re setting an alarm clock and taking him out every 3 hours or so. Reward him when he goes outside.

Hi OP, our dog when a puppy just didn't like the crate and I didn't like hearing her so upset. She slept in our room from early on and settled just fine. We used to feed her 4 times a day, last food around 8pm then we'd take her out at 12am for a wee, then again at 6am.

Restricting a dogs access to move around and confining them to one space is NOT toilet training in my opinion. It is toilet management.
The dog has two options 1) Soil my bed and lie in it or 2) Hold on until my owner decides it is an appropriate time for me to go. This gives the animal minimal choice, and one choice is hardly pleasant and in my opinion, totally unfair on the dog.

Dogs are polyphasic sleepers. This means they sleep in short periods, like to get up and move around as well as changing positions.
Changing surfaces that they sleep on also helps them regulate their temperature.
Therefor, crating dogs goes against their natural way of sleeping and removes all option of them fulfilling this instinctive behaviour.
themuttyprofessor.co.uk/2017/07/20/crate-debate-crate-not-crate/

Hi FurAndFeathers, we got him at 14 weeks, not that makes much difference I would imagine in terms of crate training.
Our only room with a hard floor is the kitchen, but our cat has to have that room at night due to the cat flap. We have talked about taking the carpet up and replaced with boards in one of our other rooms, to give us that option. But its a big job obviously and we are just not sure how long this stage will last? Yes, we always reward when he goes outside and take him out regularly. He is pretty good in the day now - some accidents but not too many as long we we are watching closely and quick to act. Goes to the back door and sits there. Just obviously different at night when upstairs in room and dark.

Do you not have a section of house that you could fence off for overnights / when you need to pop out . You may find he doesn’t bark downstairs if he’s not caged . With ours we fenced off a section of hallway until he was house trained and he was then allowed wherever and eventually ended up upstairs .

Ours was a Romanian rescue, came from a kill shelter, she’d never been indoors or trained in any way whatsoever so had so much to learn and get used to.
Every dog is different, we were lucky that she was happy in the kitchen (tiled floor, comfy bed) and with popping her outside at 11 and 5am it didn’t take long.
Good luck OP🤞🏻

I always said no dogs upstairs but if DH is away, I have her upstairs because I’m deaf and I worry I might not hear her during the night. Spoilt pooch!

Discwriter - thanks for sharing your experience. It is really helpful to hear what other dogs and owners do!
Ours sounds similar and is now upstairs with us, sleeping next to my side of the bed. Ours is fed at 7, 12, 5 ish, and another small snack at 6 ish.
I do the early dinner because this gives me a chance that he will poop before bed. A later dinner and we tend to get that in the middle of the night too and he is more disturbed (and us more anxious!). I'd do a later dinner if I thought he could have a comfortable night and wait till morning.
Does yours?

Thanks for good luck wishes FurandFeathers - we need them! Much appreciated. I'm happy for him to be upstairs with us, its just the toilet worries! We are taking him out regularly but still high risk!

FloralNomad - to be honest I'm not quite sure what I am going to do with him when we pop out now, as previously we were using the crate. I did leave him for 20 minutes today to pick up kids from school, and just left him in the lounge with a chew. Again, high risk of accidents, but luckily we rushed back and it was fine.