Dog killed sheep

[gottobehavemyself]

I know how awful this is, trust me. I also know that it's not his fault - he should never have been in the position to kill the sheep.

My in laws' 18 month old german pointer got into the farmers' field and killed two sheep. He's previously killed a peacock. Is there any coming back from this? Can this be trained out of them?

He's partially trained for day to day stuff but still a real handful and unpredictable with regards to his recall. They've had dogs for years, trained big and similarly bred dogs from puppies but they have struggled with this one from day one. I think they've underestimated the breed in terms of size and strength, and over estimated their own ability, given their age and other commitments.

Really I want to know if this can be sorted out or if he needs to be euthanised. I (know nothing about dogs) suggested he's never off the lead and wears a muzzle in the short term while they figure out what to do. Anyone with any experience of a similar situation? Any helpful advice or stories welcome

He doesn’t need to be pts but he needs to be kept on a lead. Which makes anything about whether he can be trained out of it or not pointless as he should never be in a position where it matters. Because even if he did have training you could never trust him after this. But yes you can clicker train dogs to avoid sheep, I clicker trained mine as a puppy to not even look at sheep. I think I could walk her through a field of sheep without a lead, obviously I don’t but I do walk her on a loose lead and she doesn’t react to them. And yes she did very briefly chase a sheep when she was a puppy, only for about 20 seconds but the instinct was initially there.

The death of the dog as revenge after the fact is not justified in law.

the prosecution of the owners for being irresponsible under the Protection of livestock Act is however.

A few hundred pounds?! It's not only the 2 sheep, they were likely pregnant, and the whole flock is can lose their lambs too, after an event like this. People here hate on farmers, but most farmers are working with marginal profit and something like this can be catastrophic. It's even more worrying to hear that the dog jumped a high fence, and that the owners don't see it's their fault.

This man is in no way ideal. He advocates the use of electric shock collars on dogs.

All the major animal welfare organisations advise against the use of electric shock collars. They're completely illegal in Wales, and you can get a year in prison for using one. He also says he's a former qualified member of APDT - it's a very reputable organisation and my bet is they've kicked him out for advocating shock collars.

Livestock worrying is a complex area and it's something that falls within the remit of a behaviourist - someone APDT or CCAB qualified - lists are available online.

This is going to require some very dedicated lifelong work from your in laws; if they're not prepared to put the effort in then rehoming to a more suburban area where the dog can be easily walked without seeing any livestock would be preferable. Breed rescue would be where I'd start if I were looking to rehome this dog.

Awful training methods! I would never recommend this. There are lots of good behaviourists around, no need for shock collars.

Electronic collars - bloody hell. I’d give that Take the Lead Training a swerve if I were you.

Any dog that worries sheep or live stock should be shot. If the owners don’t like that possibility they should make sure their dog is properly trained and controlled.

@CoffeeBoy is right that walking on lead is the most important thing they can do. That and reinforcing all their own garden fences - if a smart dog can see something they can usually work out how to get to it so for a dog with long legs like a GSP it's also important to remove anything near the fence they can climb on. I looked into various trainers who promised they can livestock proof your dog when my own dog was young. As far as I can tell they all use some kind of aversive, mostly rattling cans near sheep to make them scary. And they all guarantee they work. Perhaps but I think it's mostly bullshit and I would worry about making a dog reactive near livestock. I tried really hard to clicker train my collie not to look at sheep. It hasn't worked but she has a really high herding instinct. I would never walk her off lead near livestock.

In addition to the excellent points made by other posters, may I add that a muzzle doesn't prevent a dog from chasing livestock. The violent, panicked running away can cause as much damage as a direct attack. If it were my dog I would have it PTS as there is no guarantee that a new home will never take it to the countryside.

PTS? You know there are things called leads now and walks away from livestock? Bit less drastic than putting a healthy animal to sleep.

You're quite right that a muzzle doesn't prevent chasing.

However, putting a dog down because you can't guarantee that new sub/urban owners will never take it to the countryside is just histrionic.

Mine would absolutely give chase to livestock, given half a chance. We live in suburbia and normally walk in one of the local urban parks. When we go further afield it's usually to the local beach or somewhere else we can guarantee there's no wildlife. On the exceedingly rare occasions we've walked in the countryside proper, he stays on lead (and, to make extra sure, I've been known to check with walkers coming in the other direction if they've seen livestock up ahead).

So long as you rehome the dog to someone with full disclosure of the dog's history, and pick someone whose hobbies don't include long rural hikes and wild camping, there's no reason why it wouldn't be safe to re-home.

PTS is such an extreme overreaction to something that's very easily fixed by using a short lead around livestock or out in the countryside.

You can never guarantee anything with dogs anyway, no matter how well-trained they are, or how observant the owner.

If they live in Kent this course has a lot of success locally sheepproofyourdog.co.uk/

Please note I do not use electric collars or lock your dog in with a ram. In the half hour session I use strong voice commands and noise to stop dogs chasing sheep.

I'm glad to see he doesn't use electric collars or locking the dog in with a ram (wtf on the latter, that's a new one on me).

Unfortunately he's still using aversive methods to make the dog scared of sheep. Shouting at the dog and using what sounds like rattle cans for half an hour can only possibly scare the dog into submission for a time.

It's not going to overcome generations of deliberately breeding a prey drive into a dog, nor the dog's experience of chasing and killing livestock, and it's just as likely to create a reactive dog - otherwise known as making things worse overall! You could easily end up with a dog that still chases sheep and is now terrified of men.

Avoid... see a local APBC or CCAB qualified behaviourist as they do cover problematic prey drives.

MN probably isn't the best place for level headed advice on this matter. Most of the comments on this thread are putting our own feelings on dogs which is completely irrational and is largely why so many people have so many issues with their pet dogs these days.

It's utterly mind blowing that most think re homing this dog and never allowing it off lead is less aversive management than live stock training with an e collar. Astounding. It's a pointer ffs, it shouldn't be living in a city on a short lead. The fact it has killed prey also doesn't mean it will maul children either. It's a dog, it's not really that surprising that a pointer who got in amongst sheep killed some.

Also, all dogs have chase - prey - kill drive, wether they do all three depends on the dog. You can never count on not coming across livestock/prey anywhere, it's just not possible. And this can't be fixed with sausages. I would speak to Jamie Penrith or atleast do your research on him or any other balanced trainer. This can't be fixed with sausages and if you think it can you will spend the rest of this dogs life trying and ultimately it will be a very unhappy dog.

I grew up with my grandparents GPs - beautiful dogs and a delight when properly trained.

I think the other question - given it’s a male pointer and therefore I’m guessing a pretty large dog - is whether they will be able to control the dog even when on a lead around livestock? It’s very hard to train out once a dog has chased and killed livestock, so although possible it has to be considered that they won’t be able to fully train this dog to be non reactive to livestock all the time.

It sounds like they live in an area with lots of livestock - is this the case? Even if muzzled he could do damage if he escapes the leash and chases livestock.

I think it would be at least worth considering rehoming the dog via a breed specific rescue to a more suitable home, and on where he could possibly have a fuller life.

Don't kill the dog! They're shitty owners and need to keep their dog on a lead at all times.
This wouldn't have happened if dog was on a lead. Their fault not the dog.

What @ferociouslychristmas said.
A dog like a GSP needs to run: they are bred to range wide.

I don't see why a dog that's shown to be aggressive and killed other animals should be rehomed to a city where there are more possible 'preys' within reach (children and little dogs).

It's true that it doesn't mean the dog is a threat to humans but you'll never know and this behaviour should be a cause for extreme caution so that opportunity never presents itself.

FWIW I don't think the dog should be PTS either, but properly retrained like pp said.

It's utterly mind blowing that most think re homing this dog and never allowing it off lead is less aversive management than live stock training with an e collar. Astounding. It's a pointer ffs, it shouldn't be living in a city on a short lead.

There's a huge range of options between the extremes using an aversive like an eCollar and never letting the dog off lead ever again.

There's a huge range of options between the extremes using an aversive like an eCollar and never letting the dog off lead ever again.

How many of them are practical and don't involve you getting dragged around at the end of a 15m long line and having to avoid everywhere that you may see a sheep or a bird etc? Really, someone on here has suggested placing the dog in an urban home and never letting it off a lead.
If OP's in-laws want to seriously address this issue and keep their dog alive and happy and themselves sane, they should steer clear of the 'sexier than a squirrel' brigade and find a trainer who is honest and will actually help them and their dog.

Right , so they had been responsible in hiring a dog field but it wasn't hugely secure. May be worth a chat to the owners of said "secure dog field"

GSPs and all HPR dogs are intelligent and bred to hunt. Which they will so self employed if not trained.

The dog is very unlikely to be aggressive towards kids or people, it's an instinctive hunting urge which is our job as their owners to direct and control.

You need a specialist trainer, start with gundog trainers and see if you can find an HPR specialist, they are out there.

Gundog App, or message someone like BushelBeard gundogs who is superb and force free.

Again, there are plenty of options out there if you're willing to put the work in. And none of them need to involve shock collars (which aren't guaranteed to work anyway).

Off the top of my head - secure fields with proper livestock fencing, indoor arenas to do things like agility, using a 50/100m long line to let them run in "safe" open spaces, or sports like CaniCross or BikeJor - which are both great for high energy dogs who have poor recall or high prey drives.

I stayed away from this thread as a bit close to home as a sheep owner and dog trainer.

Some comments are just ridiculous!

Farmers are not emotionally attached to their animals oooooookay then so it is fine for us to lose our livehood for the pleasure of someones badly trained dog

Dogs that chase sheep will not kill humans!

Dogs that chase sheep will always chase sheep and will always need to be on a lead near livestock

Dogs that do not chase sheep need to on a lead near livestock

Dogs that are dogs need to be on a lead near livestock

Basically ALL DOGS need to be ON A LEAD near SHEEP

Dogs that chase sheep can be trained Over a long time to be more responsive to their owner in situations with no livestock around but must always be on a lead near sheep

A lead is the way to prevent sheep being killed by dogs.

Ignorance of the owner may be the reason for dogs killing sheep but once the owner knows they just keep their dog on a lead. Although they are pretty thick if owners do not know that dogs will chase sheep and do pretty much anything to get to them.

On our land we have had dogs rip their stomachs open jumping over bard wire fences to get to sheep and have major injuries themselves as well as causing over 50% of the sheep to miscarry.

All dog owners must assume that all dogs will chase sheep not wait to see if they do.

Never ever own a pointer unless you are a bit mad, love training recall for many years without seeing any progress or are a fantastic experienced gundog trainer or want to put in a lot of work to have a reasonable civilised trained dog.

I have award winning sheep dogs however out of politeness I will always have my dogs on lead around livestock that is not mine (unless competing!)

I could give you many tales of owners with dogs and the reason they gave for their dog chasing our sheep!

The dog that ripped its stomach open was one such dog - the owners took us to the small claims court for injury to his dog - the case was laughed out of court and the judge happily explained to the man that his vet bill for £2000 did not touch the sides of the amount of money we lost due to the aborted lambs and dead sheep.

However his dog then got back into our fields the following year and did exactly the same thing to our sheep.... The dog had run over two 15 acre fields from the footpath to get to the sheep. This time he did have a bill to deal with.