Aussie pup struggles, advice needed please!

[ezbez]

Hi all,
My first post on the doghouse! We picked up our 8 week old Australian Shepherd puppy this week. There are lots of positives, mainly the fact he's a total fluff ball! He's doing well with crate training, currently having all of his meals in there and day time naps with the door closed, with us in view.

We did lots of research before we got him, but now he is here we are realising how much conflicting information is out there.

One of the problems we have is a common one, puppy biting. He's a herding dog, so puppy biting can be a bit worse than in other breeds, especially as he nips ankle bones! We've read Steve Manns book which says we should give a time out for any human biting and offer redirection with a chew toy. We're doing this, however it's difficult as he's biting our trousers, not letting go, growling and tugging at our pants like it's tug of war. He's also nipping calf/ankle skin, it really hurts! It'

The thing that's worrying us is that it's happening really often, so he's spending a lot of time in time out in the kitchen. We've read a total contradiction to the book, which says time out shouldn't be used to stop biting as it shows the dog separation from you is a negative thing = separation anxiety.

The other issue is that he's absolutely obsessed with getting on the sofa. He's been on there once, the first day he was home for about 5 seconds. He jumped up and off, and really hurt himself (my fault, I shouldn't have let him do it). So he's not been back on it since and we've decided to make that a rule, no dog on the sofa. However he's absolutely intent on it. We have tried everything, and are consistent every time. Moving him away, distraction, time out, grabbing his attention with the smell of a treat and redirecting him into a 'sit' and then praise/treat. Nothings working. He jumps up at the sofa and we repeat the process 50+ times and he doesn't lose interest.

Any advice at all? I think we've read too much and need some real life perspectives. It would be much appreciated. I will include a pic as payment

Here he is, our little menace!

He's 8 weeks old and you've chosen a high energy herding dog. You will have to do everything a million times a day in training him and be absolutely consistent.
I don't agree with time out for a totally normal puppy behaviour - just stop moving and give him a toy instead and reward for playing with that instead. If you don't want him on the sofa, does he have a cosy bed right next to it so he is still near you, and you seed it with lots of toys and positive reinforcement for going in there.
Puppies are exhausting, and he is a tiny baby, so its a long haul to a well behaved dog

Is he getting enough sleep? Puppies need lots of sleep otherwise they get overstimulated and nippy. You might need to enforce naps for a while, I did 2 hour quiet/nap time in a crate/pen with safe toys/kong and 1 and a half hours out to play/train or walk and repeated this all day.

Now my pup is 20wks and she seems to stick to this routine by herself so I only need to crate her if I'm out, my meal times or I'm nipping upstairs where I can't watch her. She seems to play for an hour and a half to 2 hours and then flop down by me for a few hours nap.

It does get easier, her teeth started falling out round bonfire night and now she hardly nips at all, she's like a different dog.

@CMOTDibbler hi, thanks for your reply.

When he's biting, I don't move, I don't want him to think it's a game. We do try to offer a toy, but he doesn't want it, he wants the pants. He really doesn't let go. We've tried all the things common sense would tell you to do.

It's not that I don't want him on the sofa, its that it's too high for him and I don't want him to hurt himself again. So we've just decided to make it a really clear boundary. Yes of course he has a comfy bed close to us, with lots of toys on it. He also has his comfy crate which he likes. He seems to prefer the hard floor to his bed though, despite encouragement.

We know how important training and repetition is. he's already learnt so much in just a few days. He's no longer splashing in his water, he's learnt to drink it nicely. His toilet training is going really well. He's learnt his name and to sit. He loves verbal and physical praise even more than treats and toys. We love him lots already and we really just want the best for him and us!

@BeansOnToast32 That's so helpful and reassuring, thanks so much.

I've just said today to dp that I think it's exactly that. I think we need to draw up a routine for him. I've noticed a really similar natural pattern. He has a 1.5 hour play, then a 2 hour sleep, pretty much on repeat. He doesn't always know he's getting tired, so I need to start encouraging him into the crate myself.

Fingers crossed this helps, and stop the other the top biting and tugging!

The sofa I can deal with, as it's just alllooot of moving him away and repetition. He's still so little, hopefully it'll sink in to him soon.

Over the top*

As you know biting in puppies is just normal behaviour put in a herding breed and it tends to change where they bite!

Herders often go for the legs and ankles as their instinct will encourage them to act on movement. However at 8 weeks your puppy will not have developed fully blown herding yet - give it until 4 months

Training in puppies is 98% management and 2% training (in my opinion) so situations where he may grab the ankles eg if he is in the kitchen and you are walking about doing things, or if it is when you come down the stairs and he is waiting at the bottom to bounce etc. I would scatter treats on the floor for him to sniff out. Initially this will be hard for him so you will need to show him where they are and keep the food close together. Soon you can make it harder and scatter them further and then the sniffing will take longer to do.

Keep this all calm, so possibly no voice just let him see you slowly bowl out the food.

The biting will be due to painful teeth, the need to explore (they have no thumbs) and over tired so sleep is often the first port of call when the puppies have turned into bitey buggers.

Teaching a calm and a settle is more important than anything with a herding breed.

Re the sofa I would stop the moving away and repeat as this is just becoming a great game and a great way to get your attention. You pup will soon just go to the sofa to get you attention. So door always shut on sofa room unless supervised.

Prevent the getting on the sofa so this may mean you sitting on the floor with him )although this can over excite some puppies) it may be having a lead on in the sitting room and reward all the time the puppy is on the floor. Chews, to distract the puppy which they can have on a mat or their bed on the floor. Reward where you want the puppy to be always.

Or just for a week or two avoid the room with the sofa to break the habit.

Totally understand the love for lying on the floor my collies always prefer the floor to any bed.

Can I ask why you chose an Aussie? No judgement just wondered

Beautiful pup

Oh drop cue for will help with release from tugging your trousers.

When the drop cue is learnt I would then introduce a tug toy and use that to consolidate the drop command and then it can be used on your trousers etc

@ezbez the worrying that my puppy would seriously hurt herself was the worst part for me, it still is a little because she can be like a bull in a china shop but now she's a bit bigger (she's still a small breed) and a tiny bit calmer I worry less.

She pulled her elbow at about 13 weeks having zoomies in the garden 😩 she was on metacam and strict crate rest for a week and only allowed on short lead walks for 10mins 3 times a day and she had to be on lead in the garden. She seems fine now thankfully but she was right terror that week and I was terrified she'd break a bone. I even put door mats on most of the hard flooring so she wouldn't skid about.

Honestly at the start it feels like you'll never get a minutes peace but it does get easier even though it feels like it'll never happen. I'd just lost my 12 year old dog before getting this one and, she distracted me from the grief and when times were hard with the pup I remembered how amazing my old girl was and knew that in time, with effort and patience this one would eventually be equally amazing. I'm just starting to see glimpses of the dog she will be when she's matured and it makes all stress of the last few months worth it.

I'm sorry, but he is 8 weeks old. Please don't over think this at this point. He is a baby, to put him in time out for these behaviours is like putting a human baby on the naughty step for chewing on a toy. And that will do far more harm than good, to a high energy herding breed, that's just been taken away from his litter.

He will grow out of this. As long as you maintain consistency in your reactions, always stick with positive reinforcement, offer him alternatives to his choices, and keep up the distraction. And don't forget teething too, it's just as hard for them as it is toddlers.

It all takes time and patience. Puppy training for you and him when he is fully vaxed will help hugely, but then get ready to go through it again through his adolescence. As another poster said, you have chosen a high energy herding breed, I cant tell you how intelligent these dogs are. As adults, they have brains comparable to a 7 year old. You have your work cut out. ( direct from working line collie owner here )

It's only when they are around two, do you finally start to see your hard work, time and patience paying off. And done right, you will be handsomely rewarded. They are incredible members of the family. ❤️ 🙂

You have chosen a beautiful dog but a very difficult dog. They are demanding of time and attention, can be extremely destructive if not living in the right environment. This breed needs a lot mental stimulation, they also have a strong herding instinct that can go haywire without an appropriate outlet. Also because of their high intelligence they can be hard to train.

If you think the 8 week old biting is bad, you honestly need to prepare yourself for what's coming at 4-6 months. It will be 100x worse.

I know you say you have done research but did you really take in what you were reading. It's definitely not a breed for a novice dog owner. What job do you have lined up for your dog.??

Agility, scent work, caniX etc.? Training needs to start now at 8 weeks to keep its brain occupied and working.

Hello from a fellow Aussie owner. Mine is now 17 months old and an absolute delight.

I wouldn't use timeouts for nipping at this stage. Your pup is so little and he is exploring his new environment with his mouth, as very young dogs (and very young humans) tend to do. If he becomes unusually bitey, it may mean he's overtired so a nap would probably be a good idea. Otherwise redirection and distraction can be the best strategies.

My pup has always been energetic and active but I also put a high priority on helping him settle calmly. I think that is something worth investing time in when they are young. But of course at 8 weeks they have the attention span of a gnat 😀so training of any kind can only be done in short bursts.

Aussies are wonderful dogs. In general, they are very responsive to training and extremely clever. Looking at the picture of your puppy made me feel very nostalgic for those early days.

The enforced naps are working great, he's already had 2 naps since I posted and he's like a different dog. I think he was massively over tired and we totally missed it.

We got an Aussie as a family member has had them all of her life, her beautiful girl recently had a litter and we'd been considering it for years so we decided to go for it. We're moving to a more rural area in the next 12-18 months and really wanted an Aussie to share our lives with.

We were both raised with family dogs in our homes as teens/early twenties but yes, this is our first dog of our own. It's a much different experience, we aren't complete beginners but are still learning as we go.

Re job, I want to start agility with him! There's a group near our current home who are amazing and they welcome beginners so once he's vaccinated we're going to join them. However, if he's anything like his mum, he'll be a total couch potato. She's a half hour walk and done kind of girl, you can't get her any further!

@certainshepherdpups thanks for such a positive post. People can be so doom and gloom about Aussies but I've only ever had wonderful, loving experiences. I know how much work you have to put in, especially at the beginning, but you reap the rewards later. They are the best dogs.

He is a little cutie, can't wait to watch him grow.

He's gorgeous .

First of all . Get an indoor puppy lead . A crate and a pen .

I always find they bite when they are over tired . Into the pen for rests.

I'd check out the ladies working dog fb group - lots of solid advice for working breed owners .

Be honest with yourselves , have you gone for a dog beyond your ability of dog understanding ? If you're referring to multiple books the answer is likely yes .

It's ok - but it means likely you should get a single trainer onboard early and work with them so they can teach you

Also you can get a bone that you fill with water and freeze , licki mats , kongs to keep feeding them in different ways .

You're doing the right thing logging schedule . Log pee breaks , rest rest rest .

I like feeding in the crate to give a positive environment ( some others don't)

Hi op, your puppy is gorgeous!!! I've got a very high energy breed (not an Aussie but similar ballpark) and fell into the trap of thinking he needed loads of stimulation to keep him happy. In fact, it's the exact opposite. Sleep, sleep and more sleep. Maybe a little sniffy game/2 mins trick training. And then some more sleep.

Train calm and off switch above all else. If you play a lot now, that's what your dog will come to expect and that can lead to frustration. 1.5hours of play/interaction is maybe too long in one stretch.

Biting so hard it hurt was always a sign my pup was over stimulated and tired. He was an absolute monster until about 8months (all my clothes were shredded and I was regularly bruised!) but now he is honestly the gentlest dog I've ever met - takes treats with his front teeth and nibbles with his lips when he plays!!

I agree with the pp who said puppies are 98% management, 2% training. A bit of sacrifice/annoyance now pays dividends later.

(All the above said with the benefit of hindsight having made ALL the mistakes myself 😆).

@ezbezI agree that people can be needlessly negative about certain breeds. Aussies and border collies (which I've also had) seem to attract a lot of these comments. But my experience with these dogs has been uniformly positive. My Aussie is a dream and basically always has been (though in the interests of full disclosure he did have a few weeks as a teenager when his behaviour was quite challenging, but fortunately it didn't last long).

If you haven't already discovered them, the Puppy Survival threads here are a great place to interact with fellow puppy owners who are going through similar stages. They are very welcoming and supportive. I really enjoyed participating in those threads.

Enjoy your gorgeous pup! I'm sure he will bring you so much joy.

First he's lovely congratulations! Second the Steve Mann book is great, I used it myself and would recommend it but it massively oversells the easy-peasy bit. On the whole it contains good advice but take it all with a pinch of salt and be realistic about how long things will take to work. I agree teaching drop and leave are really helpful and you can't start too soon or reinforce too much. Once you start walking your pup will want to explore all kinds of dangers with their mouth so getting these reliable is great - but it's a process and we had a period with our collie where drop was clearly a great game which cued running around with something naughty in her mouth. She grew out of that and drops and leaves reliably at 18m. Remember all attention inc negative attention is a reinforcer so if biting gets you to pick puppy up and take him to another room whilst talking in an interesting stern voice when you weren't paying attention to him he will bite for fun. Time out can mean just turning attention away and only resuming the game when the bitey nippy play stops. Have loads of safe toys around to substitute with different textures. He'll be smart and he will get this. But it can take up to 6m and that doesn't mean you are doing it wrong. I ended up just buying a lot of new jumpers! Remember the end goal is not no bitey play but only biting and chewing appropriate things i.e. never skin. So slowly and steadily teaching your dog how to use their mouth well is much better than scaring them and making them stressed when their teeth are hurting and they don't know what they should abd shouldn't nip or chew. Again with a teenage collie these days are a bit behind me and I know she has amazing bite inhibition - as you would expect for the breed. Teenageness brings a whole other set of issues to enjoy obviously. But herding breeds are a ton of fun, I do really enjoy my dog even on the days she's decided to completely ignore me.

@OllytheCollie that's great advice, thanks so much.

Yes I'm already 2 sweatshirts and a pair of leggings down! His tiny teeth are so sharp!

@ezbez we have had issues with the puppy biting too so I feel your pain! Have had to bin two pairs of trousers with holes from him! Our little man is 12 weeks, and we've found a more strict routine with downtime in his crate has worked wonders. I've been following some advice from South End Dog Training (I pay for a monthly subscription but there is plenty of free advice on their Instagram and Facebook page) and am finding as long as we stick to it, its really helping.
He is definitely worse when overtired and over-stimulated, so enforcing naps has really really helped. If he is just hyper and exciteable, I remove myself from him (through a glass door so I can watch him), and I go back to him when he calms and fuss him.
It is exhausting (and painful!) As I seem to be the favourite chew toy, my husband not so much! Good luck, it is so worth it!

@Flightlessbirrd yes we're doing similar. I also think he's over tired and over stimulated but I'm struggling to enforce naps as we aren't fully crate trained yet. He's only been home a few days. I try to keep him in his crate for increasing periods of time but he wants out after about 20 seconds. He cries, barks and paws at the door, he really doesn't like it even with treats and reassurance. I'm worried that ignoring him wanting out will make him not want to go in the crate at all.

His biting isn't improving, me leaving the room doesn't help, when I come back in it just continues. He growls, pulls and thrashes his head side to side like it's tug of wall. I try to stay still so he doesn't think it's a game but when he gets my skin it really hurts and I instinctively move away. He's broken my skin, I have puncture wounds on my legs and arms.

We have hired a trainer who's coming to the house tomorrow. I'm so, so worried about this behaviour and so is DP. We're really struggling. I'm really worried that it's more than him just being over tired. I can't stress enough that this isn't just a puppy teething and chewing and nipping, he's showing actual aggression towards me and only me. It's so strange and he loves me the rest of the time!

Just praying time goes fast until the training session.

I'm really sorry you're struggling. I think it is unlikely that your puppy is displaying genuinely aggressive behaviour. He's only 8 weeks old and from your description it sounds very much like play, albeit rough play. Of course, I can't say for certain but that's what it sounds like to me.

Do you have a pen as well as a crate? I would also be wary of overusing the crate if he seems distressed. A pen is an option that would allow him more space but also keep him contained. I never used a crate overnight for my Aussie though we did have one for the first few months for occasional daytime naps. But I took crate training very slowly and didn't close the door at all for the first several weeks my pup was home. Having a pen or a puppy-proofed room can be really useful.

Have you discovered which treats he particularly likes? One method to prevent a puppy from jumping up and nipping at your feet or legs is to hold a treat next to your leg as you walk. It has the added bonus of getting him used to walking by your side which will be useful when you start working on lead walking.

I hope the trainer is able to help and offer you some tips and advice. And for now 💐and 🍷 for you. This too shall pass.

Puppy biting is horrible. We’re on our first puppy (14 weeks) and it’s a real shock. We’ve had older rescues with significant behaviour problems but this pup is a whole other level!

Ours does everything you describe. She lunges then latches on and shakes. It’s pretty normal but like you we are bruised and a bit bloodied.

Our trigger is over excitement. So we try to pre empt if possible and if not, redirect onto a nice soft toy. If that fails then we calmly remove ourselves until she calms down. We don’t go away, just the other side of a barrier. When she’s calm we come back in and carry on playing. If she bites, rinse and repeat. She still bites but she stops more quickly now. We don’t get the prolonged frenzies. I did swear if she wasn’t crated by our bed at night she’d eat us in our sleep 😂

It is painful and I genuinely don’t know how people deal with it with younger kids. I’m looking forward to it getting better but I know it can take a while.

proper crate training takes weeks or months. I’m doing it at the moment. She will sleep overnight in her bedroom crate but that’s different to waking hours crating. The dog training advice and support Facebook group has a great guide. I did it with my last rescue and it was a game changer and we used it on and off her whole life of 17 years.

@eezbez I hear you, I had to walk away and ask my husband to deal with our pup at one point because I was close to tears. It's extremely stressful! One thing I looked into was why I was the target 99% of the time. I am with him most of the time as I WFH and from what I could gather was he is essentially treating me as his mum, and he would do the same to her and his litter mates. It made me feel a little better than its not something I'm doing wrong, but it doesn't help when you're trying to get them to stop without them thinking it's a game.
Our crate training was a battle during the day, we actually have one upstairs for evening and one downstairs for daytime. The daytime was difficult but we have managed to master it with treats when he goes in and making it really cosy now only in the last 5 days or so, he settles great now. I was getting worried he would see it as a punishment and continue to react negatively. There is light at the end of the tunnel even though it doesn't feel like it just now.
I hope the trainer works for you, its really tough. We're also finding that now we're doing a short walk once a day he's too tired to care about biting! Long may it last!