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Original poster

Two male dogs fighting viciouslt

78 replies

Mistletow · 04/10/2022 12:57

Hi I have 2 male dogs, first dog is grand basset Griffin vendee, second an oeb bulldog , gbgv is 4, oeb is just 1. So puppy grew up with gbgv for past year and played and got along well once the older dog got used to pup. Sleep together in the back room and play and ramble about outside. Recently they have started to fight savagely. I can't get them to stop and have to pull rjem apart. It is usually instigated by the oeb , he will stare at the older dog, tail pointing up , back rolls standing and then they go hammer and thongs. Older dog gives it back as good as he gets. None of them whimper and to be honest the pup is mad to get back at older dog if he can. None are neutered. I'm heartbroken as I don't want to have to loose either of them but also don't want any getting hurt. Pup actually is the one who ends up getting cut or scarred on his ears most of the time. When I say pup he's same size as older dog but a lot stronger looking . Any advice as to how to prevent it. I dont feed them together , I don't give them toys . It seems to be only when we are around them.

OP posts:
Original poster
Mistletow · 04/10/2022 14:43

2bazookas · 04/10/2022 14:38

We had a similar scenario between two male collie crosses.

Our vet said that the younger male was approaching dog puberty, male hormones rampant urging him to challenge his rank in the pack , and the solution was to neuter one dog . The entire dog and the neutered one would both then both recognise and accept their revised sex/rank status.

It worked, peace returned and there was no further aggression. In our case the vet (who knew both dogs) advised neutering the younger and more powerful aggressor.

I have the older dog neutered ( mistake in op) so I will bring up what the vet had told me to the specialist. I'm not planning on breeding them anyway just family pets. I don't have to bring the dogs to this first meeting they just want to take all the details. I will relay all the happenings and see what they come up with. Glad you got your guys sorted. Such a relief

OP posts:
mountainsunsets · 04/10/2022 14:46

Mistletow · 04/10/2022 13:59

Honestly the past 2 days I've been so stressed and worried about them both. They both cry and whine now that they aren't together but can see each other . I just want to make sure no one gets hurt.

Show quote history

Bless you - it must be horrendous. Dog fights are so awful to hear and witness, especially when both the dogs are yours.

CleopatrasBeautifulNose · 04/10/2022 14:48

Do your research before you neuter, doing that at a young age can exacerbate behaviour issues not solve them. There is a large evidence base for this and the old advice of "neutering young solves all aggression" isn't sound.
Maturing in the absence of hormones can leave dogs in a perpetual state of immaturity which came make it worse not better.
Just wanted to put that there so you can look before you jump.
There was a thread on here the other day from an op in oz who had neutered early to manage aggression and she was practically dismantled by some posters. Which was unfair as she'd taken advice... There were some good links to the evidence though.

Original poster
Mistletow · 04/10/2022 14:49

Just off the phone with the vet he is going to neuter him Thurs morning , he understand the predicament and says its no harm to have it done regardless of the outcome of the behaviour specialist. At least I will know I've taken what ever steps I could for his future down the line wherever it might be. Thanks for all the advice everyone.

OP posts:
Original poster
Mistletow · 04/10/2022 14:52

CleopatrasBeautifulNose · 04/10/2022 14:48

Do your research before you neuter, doing that at a young age can exacerbate behaviour issues not solve them. There is a large evidence base for this and the old advice of "neutering young solves all aggression" isn't sound.
Maturing in the absence of hormones can leave dogs in a perpetual state of immaturity which came make it worse not better.
Just wanted to put that there so you can look before you jump.
There was a thread on here the other day from an op in oz who had neutered early to manage aggression and she was practically dismantled by some posters. Which was unfair as she'd taken advice... There were some good links to the evidence though.

No I was going to have to get him neutered as only one testicle dropped so the vet told me it could lead to cancer if not taken out , I was just waiting for him to be old enough to get it done. My vet is of the same opinion as you've shared, that neutring to stop aggression doesn't always work but considering the situation and the worry the one testicle could cause cancer he is happy to do it.

OP posts:
CleopatrasBeautifulNose · 04/10/2022 14:55

Fair play, good luck with things then, it sounds really distressing.

Whitney168 · 04/10/2022 15:14

2bazookas · 04/10/2022 14:38

We had a similar scenario between two male collie crosses.

Our vet said that the younger male was approaching dog puberty, male hormones rampant urging him to challenge his rank in the pack , and the solution was to neuter one dog . The entire dog and the neutered one would both then both recognise and accept their revised sex/rank status.

It worked, peace returned and there was no further aggression. In our case the vet (who knew both dogs) advised neutering the younger and more powerful aggressor.

The advice would often be the opposite actually - neuter the least dominant and leave the other entire, thereby widening the gap in their status.

However, hopefully the OP has found a reputable behaviourist who can give good advice on this. (Have to say, I wouldn't be leaping in to neuter him before I'd had the appointment if it can be managed until the dogs are assessed myself, but no claim to be an expert.)

Original poster
Mistletow · 04/10/2022 15:32

Whitney168 · 04/10/2022 15:14

The advice would often be the opposite actually - neuter the least dominant and leave the other entire, thereby widening the gap in their status.

However, hopefully the OP has found a reputable behaviourist who can give good advice on this. (Have to say, I wouldn't be leaping in to neuter him before I'd had the appointment if it can be managed until the dogs are assessed myself, but no claim to be an expert.)

Show quote history

Sorry had a whole msg wrote out. I might just give the B specialist a ring to let them know about the neutering. It will have to be done regardless of the outcome regarding the aggression anyway for health reasons but no harm in querying it first. Thank you

OP posts:
bloodyplanes · 04/10/2022 15:38

I have two males who were in exactly the same position. Absolutely fine while the younger one was a baby but started fighting as he matured. I had both neutered and it only helped a bit. They can be absolutely fine together one minute then really going for it the next. I just keep them separate now and walk them separately its the only way to guarantee that they won't hurt each other.

bloodyplanes · 04/10/2022 15:43

Claricethecat45 · 04/10/2022 14:14

Simply as possible...the Bulldog is just entering thug phase; He has tried his luck with the older one and its taken him time to build up his resentment...he's jealous and territorial and it is you, that they are fighting about. The Bulldog is keen to get the upper hand here and wont stop easily...you will not be able to relax around them; I love Bulldogs despite all the negative talk about the breed problems (and they do have them). They are regarded with suspicion anyway by other breeds due to their appearance and the sounds they make like snoring and grunting.....my Bulldogs over the years have been attacked whilst out walking by other dogs who just cant 'read' them. You are correctly getting expert advice, and a good dog behaviourist will definitely help you and mainly focus on the dynamic, and on you and how you deal with them day to day..until they come to you, to visit and assess, just keep apart, do not leave them unattended and be very even handed with each.....FWIW I have kept Bulldogs for years and years and have often had 2-3 together with no problems. I sought a behaviourist advice when introducing a new one and there are clear measures you need to take for safety and enjoyment. I have also had Bulldogs with other breeds and agree you do need to make adjustments to how you handle them and manage them - but it can be done and Ive never yet had to re-home anything; Do take the behaviourist advice though and don't be tempted to 'shop around' provided you have faith in the advisor......they will be keen to help you and IF the advice is to re-home the Bulldog, then, just do it, to the best home you can get and Id suggest a charity...please message me if you need any specific advice in that respect (Im not affiliated to any particular one but I know of 2 excellent ones and I also have access to some other breed specific advice). I do know how you are feeling and Im hoping you manage to keep them both but only if you can relax and enjoy both of them; Good luck with it.

The most sensible comment on this post!

Original poster
Mistletow · 04/10/2022 15:45

bloodyplanes · 04/10/2022 15:38

I have two males who were in exactly the same position. Absolutely fine while the younger one was a baby but started fighting as he matured. I had both neutered and it only helped a bit. They can be absolutely fine together one minute then really going for it the next. I just keep them separate now and walk them separately its the only way to guarantee that they won't hurt each other.

Sorry to hear your in the same boat. Its a horrible predicament. 😫

OP posts:
mountainsunsets · 04/10/2022 15:57

Mistletow · 04/10/2022 14:49

Just off the phone with the vet he is going to neuter him Thurs morning , he understand the predicament and says its no harm to have it done regardless of the outcome of the behaviour specialist. At least I will know I've taken what ever steps I could for his future down the line wherever it might be. Thanks for all the advice everyone.

Please don't get him neutered until you've spoken to a behaviourist. Remember - once it's done, it's irreversible so don't act rashly.

Original poster
Mistletow · 04/10/2022 16:07

mountainsunsets · 04/10/2022 15:57

Please don't get him neutered until you've spoken to a behaviourist. Remember - once it's done, it's irreversible so don't act rashly.

Show quote history

No I'm waiting on a call back from the B specialist, I tried to ring earlier. Left a msg so they should ring back before this evening. I can always defer the neutering if needs be on their advice.

OP posts:
marmaladepop · 04/10/2022 16:20

You are getting a seriously hard time on this thread OP. Can I just offer my sympathy and my own experiences? I think OEB is resource guarding you. used to rehome for a large UK charity (Pugs), and it is not an unusual problem. As a pup grows, there are hormone surges and with two males the complexity of both wanting to be top dog. It is often very difficult to resolve, and awful to live with. If I were you, I'd consider Rehoming via a breed specific charity, such as

www.theedwardfoundation.co.uk/
or

www.bulldogrescue.org.uk/epages/es143072.mobile/?ObjectPath=/Shops/es143072

Most dogs I rehomed were settled within 48 hours, they don't look back they live in the moment.

Alternatively you can try an experienced behaviourist. A dog trainer alone is not what you need, you need someone who has studied canine psychology. Again both the rescues mentioned above could possibly point you in the right direction as it is unregulated and anyone can claim to be a canine behaviourist.

Lastly don't be too hard on yourself. It takes balls to admit you are having a problem and are not coping.

I know what you mean about the 'stare' 🫤, good luck.

ThisisMax · 04/10/2022 16:35

Hi OP,

I asked a friend who is a behaviorist. Her advice:
Be careful of the neutering - she sees the issue with cancer and testicle but can you avoid neuter as its no guarantee of change? There is an implant option though which vet might be able to do - this is temporary but may help. Maybe see if this works?

Because he is a bull breed he is going to try to push more on the other dog so her advice is actually to neuter the older dog esp as its probably more likely to be less pushy. She did not know though because he was not neutered is the effect of testosterone already there and therefore wouldthe neutering do any good. Maybe try this dog with an implant? Still does not solve the neutering issue with the bulldog.

My fear and experience in rescue is that once they learn to fight its very difficult to fix. Even with no toys or resources to guard.
I appreciate its a complex and unpleasant situation and do apologise if I added to your stress with any of my earlier posts. Please if you can try to keep the bullbreeed out of trouble/ from getting loose - as he is growing and maturing he can get in trouble easily.

Original poster
Mistletow · 04/10/2022 16:49

ThisisMax · 04/10/2022 16:35

Hi OP,

I asked a friend who is a behaviorist. Her advice:
Be careful of the neutering - she sees the issue with cancer and testicle but can you avoid neuter as its no guarantee of change? There is an implant option though which vet might be able to do - this is temporary but may help. Maybe see if this works?

Because he is a bull breed he is going to try to push more on the other dog so her advice is actually to neuter the older dog esp as its probably more likely to be less pushy. She did not know though because he was not neutered is the effect of testosterone already there and therefore wouldthe neutering do any good. Maybe try this dog with an implant? Still does not solve the neutering issue with the bulldog.

My fear and experience in rescue is that once they learn to fight its very difficult to fix. Even with no toys or resources to guard.
I appreciate its a complex and unpleasant situation and do apologise if I added to your stress with any of my earlier posts. Please if you can try to keep the bullbreeed out of trouble/ from getting loose - as he is growing and maturing he can get in trouble easily.

Hi This is max, firstly thank you for the wealth of information and for going to the bother to ask your friend. I appreciate it and I'm sorry if I got snappy earlier too, I'm just panicking and felt I needed to put it in the doghouse to see if anyone had similar issues etc , I'm just living on my nerves because of it . Older dog is neutered but he is quite a strong minded dog too , so it's a case of he isn't willing to give up his top dog position, which I can understand he is older and was there first.

I will update on what happens regardless, but rest assured I'll do what ever it takes to make sure none of them will fight again . Thanks again.

OP posts:
ThisisMax · 04/10/2022 16:52

I fully hear you OP. Its awfully stressful. Maybe implants would be a good test situation, otherwise a re-home in the right home might work. Best of Luck.

ReadtheReviews · 04/10/2022 16:52

Rubbish it does change the dynamic. Older spaniel, young collie, miserable spaniel when collie hit his teens. Got him neutered- the joy of the spaniel the instant he smelled him was obvious. He could tell the hormones just weren't pumping. It's a recent issue, the op is fine. And why on earth have anyone put to sleep? Rehome as the most extreme solution!

Original poster
Mistletow · 04/10/2022 16:54

marmaladepop · 04/10/2022 16:20

You are getting a seriously hard time on this thread OP. Can I just offer my sympathy and my own experiences? I think OEB is resource guarding you. used to rehome for a large UK charity (Pugs), and it is not an unusual problem. As a pup grows, there are hormone surges and with two males the complexity of both wanting to be top dog. It is often very difficult to resolve, and awful to live with. If I were you, I'd consider Rehoming via a breed specific charity, such as

www.theedwardfoundation.co.uk/
or

www.bulldogrescue.org.uk/epages/es143072.mobile/?ObjectPath=/Shops/es143072

Most dogs I rehomed were settled within 48 hours, they don't look back they live in the moment.

Alternatively you can try an experienced behaviourist. A dog trainer alone is not what you need, you need someone who has studied canine psychology. Again both the rescues mentioned above could possibly point you in the right direction as it is unregulated and anyone can claim to be a canine behaviourist.

Lastly don't be too hard on yourself. It takes balls to admit you are having a problem and are not coping.

I know what you mean about the 'stare' 🫤, good luck.

Ah look I might not have explained my intentions properly in my first post. I love animals and I have always done everything by the book to ensure a happy dog and happy home. Yes the person I'm meeting is an actual behaviour expert, it was a dog trainer who told me id I'd need to go higher than a trainer for this situation. I absolutely will rehome him if I can't sort it no matter how much I adore him, as its not fair to him or the older dog if they get hurt. Thanks again to all for the replies.

OP posts:
Original poster
Mistletow · 04/10/2022 16:55

ThisisMax · 04/10/2022 16:52

I fully hear you OP. Its awfully stressful. Maybe implants would be a good test situation, otherwise a re-home in the right home might work. Best of Luck.

Meant to say I hadn't heard of implants will bring all these points up to the expert when we meet. Thanks

OP posts:
ReadtheReviews · 04/10/2022 16:57

Cannot also believe how many posters aren't aware that dogs go through hormonal changes between 1 and 2. It's their adolescence. 'Something changed when they turned one.' Good grief!

Kowloondairy · 04/10/2022 17:00

Please rehome one of the dogs, this is only going to end one way, with one of them being killed by the other and then the remaining dog will turn his aggression on something or someone else and the end result will be that you will ultimately lose them both.

Original poster
Mistletow · 04/10/2022 17:21

ReadtheReviews · 04/10/2022 16:57

Cannot also believe how many posters aren't aware that dogs go through hormonal changes between 1 and 2. It's their adolescence. 'Something changed when they turned one.' Good grief!

I noticed the hormone changes around 8 months, constant humping and erections that would take ages to go down and even during these situations they were still getting on fine. Its going to cost a lot of money for this b specialist but I'll be able to say I tried everything. The dogs get along with other dogs fine, have met up with family members dogs and never a bother. Just chasing and playing with each other.

OP posts:
Original poster
Mistletow · 05/10/2022 07:45

Update : I'm holding off on the neutering on the advice of Behaviour specialist, until they speak to me and assess the dog. My dad is collecting pup today to bring him to their home. So it gives me the week until the meeting. My god the relief .

OP posts:
LoveToWearADress · 05/10/2022 08:47

Glad this worked out for you - my parents have kept my problem dog and she's a much happier pooch now