When is playing, not playing?

[17CherryTreeLane]

Ddog and I sometimes meet with a friend and her dog. With her particular dog, mine plays differently to when he's with other dogs.

Both dogs have their mouths open, teeth on show but don't seem aggressive while doing it. Is this normal? After they've been doing this a while it does sometimes then turn into snarling. Should we interfere and separate them?

Really not sure where the line is between playing and fighting. My dog is 1 year old and hers is 2.

Sounds like pushy play
I wouldn’t let them interact like that

I started a similar thread a little while ago, and there were some very helpful answers. i'll see if I can find it

are they bouncing, bowing, both doing it?

this is it.
slightly different circumstances, but some helpful answers about judging when play is going too far

www.mumsnet.com/talk/the_doghouse/4511179-rough-dog-play-how-rough-is-too-rough

What breed is your dog? My lab likes to play bitey face but only with other labs. It looks horrible but it's not aggressive at all.

They're both Australian Labradoodles. Definitely both doing it

Baring teeth fine but the growling is definitely a warning sign - when my dogs play and they don't growl at all even if they are baring their teeth. In fact if out and about just sniffing other dogs and checking them out - when snarling starts it's time to move on!

Thanks @steppemum, reading now

Thanks @mondaytosunday, it does start out as a very fun play, but then seems to get out of control and we separate them. Then they stare at each other through the glass, tails wagging, as if waiting until they're allowed to roll around again.

A wagging tail is not always a good sign. Wagging can be a sign of tension or anxiety or even aggression as much as it can be a sign of happiness.

You need to look at the body language as a whole. A happy, relaxed dog is loose, their movements flow rather than jerk, the lips/mouth is loose and relaxed and the tail is in a neutral position (not high or low).

The staring is a bad signal too. Eye to eye contact between dogs is confrontational.

I suggest keeping both dogs leashed around the other and rewarding calmness. If the dogs spend a lot of time with each other it might be worth booking a consultation with a behaviourist.

Thank you @Frequency. They're sort of looking at each other, then over at us, then at each other again, then back to us. It does look playful.

That said, it sounds like we should continue to reward calmness and separate them if play looks like it might escalate.

This isn't necessarily true. Growling in play is perfectly normal for many breeds of dogs and isn't something that should automatically be dismissed as aggression.

My dog LOVES 'bitey face' and some of the sounds are horrendous but it's never ever tipped over into aggression - it's just play.

A good game of "bitey face" should include regular breaks and should stop once a dog has had enough. It should also include play bows (on both sides) and should stop immediately if one dog ever yelps or accidentally gets hurt.

There's definitely no yelping at all, no signs of either dog being hurt, and definitely no actual biting.

Goodness it's confusing

My dog does the staring/tail wagging - then leaps right back into play - and as a dog walker I've seen lots of dogs behave the same way.

If they both want to go back for more and neither of them is getting hurt, I'd say let them have at it, to be honest.

A dog who doesn't want to play will make it very clear - but in this scenario it sounds like they're both very happy to carry on!

Test both dogs' appetite for the game:

Once they've played for a bit clip a lead onto one dog. Does the other still try to engage them in play?
Yes = they want to play so, from theirb pov it was good fun
No, they go and do their own thing = they might be liking the break, so might indicate they were not enjoying it as much as it seemed.

Let them play a bit more (or next time) clip the other dog on a lead and see what the free dog does. Still try to play or wander off to their own thing?

Open mouths is usually indiciative of play and everything else sounds like play also (open mouthed snarling, or what I think of as dinosaur noises, is play).

But just like children, play can get so over exciting that it ends in tears and so allowing play for some of the time then encouraging calm for the rest, is never going to harm.

My two younger dogs never stop this. It’s totally normal. What’s annoying is the best wrestle arena for them is on top of my feet, and because of that I can confirm it’s all play and no violence, my feet still exist.

I have three ridiculous pugs - they like to play rough when they come back from a walk, lots of growling and bitey face, absolutely no aggression at all.

Very occasionally one of the dogs resource guards and can fly into aggression with the other two. It is so different - the growl sounds like cats fighting, high pitched and terrifying.

Thanks all, good to hear bitey face is normal. I might try your idea @SirSniffsAlot though, just to test if they're really enjoying it equally

This is so true - an aggressive growl and a play growl sound very, very different, but I suppose if you've only ever heard your dog play growl, you wouldn't know.

I find it difficult to navigate myself. I have a 6 month old malamute and a 2 year old pug, they love to play bitey face with each other, the pug makes the weirdest high pitched noises when he plays, he never plays like this with other dogs. The malamute is only really bitey with other fluffy dogs that look like him, the bite legs a lot also when together. The trainer says as long as it isn't too continuous eg taking natural breaks, bowing, taking turns with the playing then they are fine, she told me to distract them if it seems too full on. My malamute has never caused another dog to yelp however he has yelped a few times as dogs seem to be really rough towards him.

We met a much smaller dog than him who was in his face and bitey constantly, it scared him and he kept backing away with his tail between his legs, to me it looked uncomfortable for my dog but he didn't stop playing completely, sometimes I don't think they think to just walk off or stop, I tried to distract him but that didn't work (I could have put him on the lead and pulled him away but the dog was a quarter of mines size so I thought I was perhaps being ridiculous). In the end my pug intervened and told the other dog off, I knew that meant my big pup wasn't happy as clearly dogs are good at reading other dogs body language.

My dog growls when he wants to play but it's a different type of growl to an aggressive growl!! He's a terrier though and they growl a lot ime.

It is confusing trying to work out if they're happy playing or they've had enough though.

I know when mine has had enough because he circles back to me all the time. If I'm at risk of getting bowled over by the play, then my dog's had enough! He uses me as a shield!

My very experienced doggy friend didn't recognise it until I pointed it out. I know my boy.