rough dog play, how rough is too rough?

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We have a rescue dog. Rehomed from loving home but with elderly couple who couldn't cope with him as he is big.
Golden retriever sized mix breed. 1.5 years old. Nice natured friendly loving dog, massively full of energy and very very bouncy.

They were not walking him, so walking him 2 hours a day has calmed him right down. We use a long line and he runs round on it.

He came to us needing a lot of training around other dogs, he either jumped and barked/growled on a short lead, or (with previous owner- PO) he was let off and he ran manically round with any other dog 'playing' PO had no control and told how he flattened smaller dogs etc. Which we obviously don't want him to do.

So with us, we have been learning lead manners, and done controlled meet and greets. He is calming down around other dogs, still bounces on lead when he sees another dog, but not barking/going nuts just bouncy, play bowing. All good. Had a little play (hard because of leads) and walked on. Very positive. He LOVES other dogs, wants to play, but had no training on the right way to play.

We have only had him 3 weeks, so still REALLY early days.

So, there is a field where, if there is another dog his size, with an owner who is happy to play, we can let him off for 5 minutes to run round. He runs in a way he cannot do on the lead, which is good to see, and he is playing in a more controlled way, as we are there. This is working well, we have had some really nice run arounds, we always stick to 5 minutes and then get him back and walk on. His recall is fine, as long as there is just the other dog he is playing with. Several of the other dogs are teaching him too. Letting him know with a bark or growl that he has gone too far, and watching him, he is learning, playing better, he is big, and inclined to be dominant, but quick to respond to the leading of the other dog. He is not aggressive in any way. No mouthing etc. Lots of bouncing. The main issue is his size.

There is one dog though that is really, really rough. We have done off lead play 2 or 3 times with her, she is smaller but very solid. She crashes in to our dog and really runs at him. She is young, a year old, and really dominant. She tries to get her leg over him, and is really mouth aggressive. The borderline between mouthing and playing and actual biting is really hard to see. This morning I intervened, called our dog back and asked owner to call hers. I said I thought mine had had enough and we'd walk on. Owner was fine, but she couldn't call her dog back. She (dog) was throwing herself at mine, open mouth to shoulder.

I was really uncomfortable, felt this had crossed a line, was less play and more aggressive than that.

So my question is really, how rough is too rough?

If the other dog isn't enjoying it, then it's too rough.

Is the other dog a whippet cross, by any chance? They're complete arseholes when they 'play', it's a nightmare.

no, more of a staffie /bulldog cross

Good guideline, I am pretty sure my dog was not enjoying it.

Dogs playing is generally about sizing each other up. Its actually quite dangerous to allow dogs that dont know each other to just be like this with each other. It only takes a moment to turn into a proper fight and then you have potentially got a defensive/reactive dog.
I think if a dog enjoys this sort of play then definitely try and keep it to known dogs and dont overdo it.

It's too rough when one dog has had enough.

Well socialised dogs should be able to read signals and stop before it gets to the stage of humans having to intervene, but sadly lots of dogs are poorly socialised and lots of owners have no clue about canine body language.

Best thing is to only let your dog play with dogs she knows and to stop play before someone gets fed up.

@Branleuse

Dogs playing is generally about sizing each other up. Its actually quite dangerous to allow dogs that dont know each other to just be like this with each other. It only takes a moment to turn into a proper fight and then you have potentially got a defensive/reactive dog. I think if a dog enjoys this sort of play then definitely try and keep it to known dogs and dont overdo it.

Thanks, that is good advice.

I know a lot of the dog walkers and their dogs as I have walked here with my old dog for years.
So they know me too. It is usually the same dogs we meet, and I feel more confident with them too as I know them and their owners (and dogs know me).
This staffie dog is new to the fields we walk in, and is always off lead, so she comes straight over, which is a real pain, as I am trying to control interactions.

There is such a difference, other dogs they are running in circles, good natured. So we met an old doggy friend of my old dog this morning, he is an old English sheep dog, and that was a lovely meet and greet. He knows me quite well, and he is calm and not wanting to bounce, so we walked together for a bit (mine on lead) and that was very positive experience for our dog.

This staffie dog, the whole thing is different. Tone of the play is different.

good to know my instincts were right. I will look out and actively avoid her.

Staffies are very bouncy. I love staffies and have got one. I made the mistake before of allowing this sort of play with a friends staffie and not understanding much about dogs play and it ended up in a dog fight as another dog stepped in, and now neither of us can just trust our dogs offlead around unknown dogs because its made them defensive and sensitive

Dogs can play very roughly and it’s still fine - as long as they’re both enjoying it.

Mine has just had a playdate, lol, it’s like 2 bears wrestling tbh but... they both are actually paying attention to the others cues, so if one goes hang on that hurt a bit they stop and wait a second and restart doing something slightly different. If one has had enough for a bit they’ll both stop and rest or do something else and it’s fairly equal over who initiates each little session.

But if yours has had enough and the other one carries on then yes, you were right to stop it.

I always think of a square and in each corner of the square you have emotions that a dog is feeling

bottom right calm
upper right excitment
upper left overarousal
bottom left fear

A happy dog is a dog that lives in the calm box most of the time.

Boisterous play that makes you wonder if it is too rough has moved the dog in to the upper right box of excitement.

If this is allowed to continue your dog will move over into the left hand side and be way too overaroused closely followed by fear and aggression.

A few seconds/minutes in the over excited box is fine for most dogs but too long in that state and the behaviour can only become negative.

I think of right hand side as the happy side and then the left is the bad side. You want your dog to spend 90% of their time in the calm side 10% in the excited box if the dog can cope with it but hopefully none of their time in the bad left hand side.

Sorry if that is not explained very well! It kames sense in my brain

makes

Go with your gut, even though it’s only been three weeks you know your dog. And dogs don’t have to play with every dog they come across. I only allow mine to play with a few, where I know the dog and the owner.
Most owners don’t mind if you say no to your dog playing- the ones that do in my experience are the ones that dogs play very rough so want to bully you into letting your dog be the outlet for their hooligan.

@PollyRoulllson

I always think of a square and in each corner of the square you have emotions that a dog is feeling

bottom right calm
upper right excitment
upper left overarousal
bottom left fear

A happy dog is a dog that lives in the calm box most of the time.

Boisterous play that makes you wonder if it is too rough has moved the dog in to the upper right box of excitement.

If this is allowed to continue your dog will move over into the left hand side and be way too overaroused closely followed by fear and aggression.

A few seconds/minutes in the over excited box is fine for most dogs but too long in that state and the behaviour can only become negative.

I think of right hand side as the happy side and then the left is the bad side. You want your dog to spend 90% of their time in the calm side 10% in the excited box if the dog can cope with it but hopefully none of their time in the bad left hand side.

Sorry if that is not explained very well! It kames sense in my brain

This is great. really helpful actually.

When we got him, going on walks he quickly went round the whole square, barking and reacting to other dogs.
We pretty quickly were able to get him out of the fear barking corner (lots of other reasons around how he was being walked eg choke collar)
Now he is in the bottom right mostly with moments in top right, still spilling over on to the left hand side when he meets new dogs.

But yes, playing with that dog was definitely top left.
Glad I stopped it before it went bottom left.

Our old dog was also a rescue and needed plenty of training, but he was super, super submissive to other dogs. Ignored all other dogs completely for about 6 months, was not interested. Turned away, chose to walk round, occasionally came and sat behind my legs when I stopped to talk, so he didn't have to meet and greet other dogs. Not aggressive or scared, just didn't want to know.
In fact it was only when I walked a friend's lab every day for 2 weeks after she had a baby that he warmed up, made a friend and she taught him how to play with other dogs.

So our new dog's behaviour is all new to me!

Sounds like you are doing an amazing job with him and you have some great advice already. I'd feel very uncomfortable if another dog was behaving like that towards mine and the owner couldn't call them back. It's also not going to help your dog learn to play in a less manic way.

Thank you.
Still early days but we are encouraged at how well he is doing