Southend dog training

[SarahSissions]

Just seen this comment on another post “I was about to say the same. I don't know why people don't agree with their methods. They don't do anything cruel.”

On the home page of their website they have a picture of a dog wearing a prong collar, and often write posts advocating their use. Just because someone has a lot of Instagram followers doesn’t make them reputable, it makes me so angry that people don’t do a bit of digging and research into people they recommend.

Yes, just saw a TikTok of him training a dog, when what I saw was him wearing it out and exhausting it into submission.

Um...
I can't speak for this outfit, but I think that a lot of people are too quick to dismiss all use of aversives as 'cruel' and 'unnecessary'.

I listen to a lot of podcasts about dog training, and some of the balanced trainers are incredibly well-informed, thoughtful and considered. Ivan Balabanov, for example, is massively well-read, and a very successful trainer and competitor.

For anybody who is genuinely curious about different training styles, you can't do better than listen to this exchange between +R trainers Nando Brown and Jo-Rosie Haffenden and a pair of balanced trainers:
thecanineparadigm.com/2021/04/04/episode-172-nando-and-jo-rosie/
Nando and Jo-Rosie

I'll put my tin hat on now, and hide.

I don’t disagree with balanced training- but I don’t think the use of prong collars represent balance!!!

I personally don't advocate for physical training/behavior aids such as these, but I also think the manner to approach training is hugely variable depending on the type and temperament of dog.

I do not profess to know everything by a long shot, however I have attended many puppy and adolescent training sessions whereby positive reinforcement only is the mantra etc. I have large breed dogs and as much as I don't agree with 'punishment' or aggressive/physical methods of any sort, they require a firm hand (metaphorically) as well as reward based training.

South End guy I am quite familiar with, and I can see why some people don't agree with his methodology, but he does have some good advice equally. I guess the balance as with all things is take what you want from it, but apply your own judgement - you know your dog best.

I so agree with you and it makes me so very angry. Why can’t people see that these trainers are very good at marketing and not training.
ANY TRAINER THAT GUARANTEES A RESULT IS USING AVERSIVE METHODS
there are NO shortcuts.

I dont agree with prong collars at all. I've had dogs all my life and often took dogs that others would not have. I have rescues. There is not one training method to suit all but I won't use a prong collar. Some of Southend trainers is good advice as he deals with large dogs. Many times the issues are not the dogs but the owners. It's the owners need training.

There seem to be a lot of brand-new posters popping up in threads to shill for them recommend them, just over the past week.

Not a new user lol

I like them sorry . I find most of their content clear , informative and not too complicated for most to grasp.

I am not adverse to prong collars when used in the correct way .

I'm not adverse to any "tooling" ... it's just that , a tool .

Problem is often the tools fall into the hands of those who don't know how to use them , the same with spurs !

I'd be interested to know what qualifications the trainers at Southend Dog Training have because I don't know of a single training institute which advocates the use of prong collars or E colllars as a punishment.

Corrections have their place in training but they should never be physical or cause the dog fear or distress.

Victoria Stillwell uses corrections, usually in the form of noise as a distraction or the removal of attention. That's the kind of balance you need. Cruelty,pain and fear have no place in dog training.

A trainer local to me uses prong collars and the local dog charity have attempted to shut her down with a vicious FB campaign.

I have some sympathy for her.

I had a call from a friend asking if i knew somebody who lived in the town who would rehome her dog. She lived on the fells, sheep country, and her dog was bothering them, in fact he'd killed two on separate occasions. The farmer had threatened to shoot him, it was only because they were friends and neighbours that he hadn't already.
She had had a number of dog trainers to him but it just wasn't sinking in, despite her frequent and consistent training.

I recommended the other trainer to her. She bit the bullet and went to her, at a cost of thousands. She initially used a prong collar on him to correct his behaviour.

To cut a long story short, the prong collar was short term use for long term gain. That dog no longer bothers sheep and could quite happily share his garden with chicken and rabbits.

Had the owner not gone down that route, the dog would be dead. Instead he lives a happy life, without a prong collar, with his very grateful owner.

It wouldn't be for my 5kg little dog but sometimes a big dog needs more than a high value food and words to make them realise their behaviour is unacceptable.

@Frequency,
I would agree with you that Cruelty,pain and fear have no place in dog training with one exception: a confirmed stock-worrier when other training methods had failed. I don't subscribe to death before discomfort.

I'd be interested to know what qualifications the trainers at Southend Dog Training have because I don't know of a single training institute which advocates the use of prong collars or E collars as a punishment.
There are several canine organisations that offer training for trainers and sanction the use of prongs and e-collars. The IACP, for example, adheres to the LIMA training philosophy (Least Invasive, Minimally Aversive) and supports the use of tools as training aids, so long as the dog is not abused in the process.

E-collars used at a low to moderate stim do not cause pain; some don't even when used at their highest setting. I've tried one out on my own skin, and I've seen dogs being trained with them who show no pain or fear. In fact, I have seen less negative reaction to a first stim from an e-collar than to a first try with a halti. They can certainly be badly misused, but so can any training aid, including a lead. It also needs to be remembered that every dog is different. They have different drives and different likes and dislikes. Some dogs would rather endure discomfort than frustration. Some dogs find loud noises deeply aversive and would be terrified of a rattle can, whereas others wouldn't care.

Ultimately, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. I know a lot of people who successfully field trial their gun dogs, some at the highest level (KC Championships), and my dogs and I have been trained by some of them. They have great relationships with their dogs - they all stress the critical importance of building a good bond with your dog. The dogs are happy, confident and secure, and they have all been trained with a balance of reward and aversion.

I'll link again to the podcast I posted upthread. It's a respectful (and sometimes funny) exchange between trainers from different sides of the debate and is 100% worth a listen.
Nando and Jo-Rosie
thecanineparadigm.com/2021/04/04/episode-172-nando-and-jo-rosie/

@Changechangychange I'm not a new user. I don't subscribe to Southend dog training however I have seen some of his videos. I have not seen any of his videos using a prong collar so maybe the OP could add a link if its what everyone is discussing.
I dont agree with prong collars however I have a very large strong dog and some of his positive training methods are very good.

@Sitdowncupoftea it wasn’t you I meant actually! There’s another thread in Pets where somebody’s dog has bitten three people including a child, and there are multiple new posters telling the OP that Southend Dog Training is the only man who can help her.

I think for me if you are getting to the stage where the dog is aggressive, biting etc then you should not be going to online videos but then a face to face session with a specialist is required.
having worked with animals for 30 odd years, anyone using new and harsh kit shouldn’t be watching videos online to learn how to use it (or decide it is the right too for them); and thus anyone putting out videos advocating these tools, or showing their use is irresponsible- because if they really are the only option (and I will accept that on very rare occasions they might be the only option) then they should be fitted and used under close supervision from an experienced expert. Not picked up from an online video.
If Southend were quietly getting in with their work and helping last chance dogs then I might be able to tolerate it; but using harsh methods to generate “quick fix” videos as click bait is abhorrent.

Home page of their website. Prong collar being normalised being used to just illustrate a page

You don’t need aversive training tools to stop dogs worrying stock.

I’m from a sheep farming area, I’ve even owned a dog who had worried sheep in a previous home, people don’t train their pet dogs not to chase sheep.

You just use a bog standard lead 😐

I mentioned them the other day, I'm not a new user or a shill account.

I tried piles of training with my first dog and I've ended up with a reactive bad tempered idiot who used to love people and dogs and now hates everyone.

We're signing up for SDT soon as I'm literally out of ideas. So far the bits I've tried from theit videos have helped but we're not anywhere near fixing the issue. And none of the videos I'm usi g include prong collars or aversion but distraction with food or redirection on the lead.

People who don't like the guy or his methods seem to think every video is a dog being beaten, wearing a prong collar even on a 6kg dog or an e collar to learn how not to pull on a lead.

If you actually listen to the words and look at the methods you'll see the prongs are only for extreme cases.

Would you prefer all these aggressive dogs be put down for bites?

I have said this before adversive training does work BUT there is always a fall out. Adversive training is not very accurate eg dog gets shocked for running away but also sees a dog so has no idea whether it is seeing dogs that cause the shock or that specific area, etc . Adversive training also damages the relationship and increased stress levels between owner and dog. Loads of recent academic reports saying results may be quicker using adversive training but long term effect can be short and that positive training methods are more effective and long lasting.

Edith the argument that shock collars dont hurt is just incorrect. Adversive training has to hurt or cause positive punishment to work. That is just science and one that all trainers agree on whether balanced or positive. Having a collar on your wrist and knowing when it is activated is very different from randomly being shocked when you are not expecting it.

Your commment I would agree with you that Cruelty,pain and fear have no place in dog training with one exception: a confirmed stock-worrier when other training methods had failed. I don't subscribe to death before discomfort ....but that is not the only option - just use a lead!

Interestingly I belong to a positive dog training group and southend dog trainer joined to ask about our methods and you will see on more recent videos the wording of praise and lessening the shock of the collar by giving rewards. However he did not stay long. He has no qualifications he admits to.

He has also on here asked people to remove threads and threaten to sue when they discussed dogs they had got from him. Dogs that had mega issues. Look at some of the videos when he is using stooge dogs the dogs are showing very very high level of stress and that alone means no way would I use his methods.

Compliance in dogs does not mean a dog is trained or happy

Excellent comment !

Would you prefer all these aggressive dogs be put down for bites?

I would prefer for a face to face qualified behaviourist to meet the dog in person, identify the cause of the aggression and work on resolving the cause.

Conditioning the dog not to react to stimiuli using aversive methods does not resolve the issue and can go very, very wrong.

The dog and the prong collar/sheep for example. That dog no longer tried to chase sheep because he is terrified of them. Sheep cause pain. Now imagine what is going to happen if a sheep gets too close?

Prong collars and E collars have no place in pet dog training.

The IACP is not an organistion that I would promote as a good organisation. Not only do they encourage use of adversive methods but also encourage debarking of dogs which is illegal in the UK.

Another podcast with positive trainers and "balanced" trainers is Denise Fenzi and Nino Drowaert a successful sports dog trainer

Positive training vs ecollar training live discussion Denise Fenzi and Nin Drowaert

Would you prefer all these aggressive dogs be put down for bites?

Actually - yes. There are worse fates for an aggressive than falling asleep surrounded by the humans had that love you.

Dogs that are stressed and scared to the point that they attack humans are not happy dogs. We shouldn't have to use aversive techniques in order for them to submit to us.

I also believe that, unless it's provoked by illness or pain, the majority of aggressive dogs will always be aggressive and are therefore not safe to be living with humans.

@sunsetsandsandybeaches unfortunately some people don't know the difference between reactive and aggressive dogs. I'm not sure if you have ever owned one as I disagree they can be desensitised in many cases dependingon the trigger. One size does not fit all. As for prong collars same as choke chains I would never use anything like that. I've never seen any of the videos using a prong collar. However some of his videos are good.
There is a reason for aggression or reactivity and that's why people should seek a qualified behaviourist or trainer recommended by a vet .
It's shocking how many unqualified dog trainers there are. People need to be very careful who they use.

Those reccomending Southend Dog Training and other aversive trainers - are you able to find actual, scientific studies with data (not anecdata from Faceache) proving that aversive methods are beneficial to some dogs?

If not, why not?

If the methods are scientifically sound why has this not been proven?

@Sitdowncupoftea my own dog is reactive and I've worked with numerous aggressive dogs over the years.

While some reactive dogs can be desensitised, a truly aggressive dog will always be aggressive and putting a prong or shock collar on it will only add fuel to the fire.

I will always maintain that being PTS is far from the worst thing that can happen to a dog.

The owner of Southend Dog Training has no qualifications I know of and isn't registered with any of the recommended training or behavioural organisations for dogs so I'm not sure why people are so keen to recommend him - I suspect a lot of is because his social media is big and he has lots of followers 🤷🏻‍♀️