Really struggling - everyday feel we made a bad decision

[Sofadog]

I’ve posted before about our second dog. We were having some major issues with humping/ragging etc. In the end we decided to neuter at 10 months which was earlier than we would have liked. That was 6 weeks ago. The humping has stopped and I was under no illusion that, given we have a collie cross, he would calm down but he is just awful at the moment. He does not stop, he does not listen, has forgotten every bit of training we have done and he is really getting me down.

We are doing bronze obedience classes once a week and I am always mortified by the way he carries on. His foundation classes he aced. He basically will only respond to command if there is a treat and seems to have wised up to when there isn’t one and he’s only getting verbal praise.

He gets an off lead walk in the morning and gets to run and play with older dog (3). They chase each other so he does let off some steam. Lunch time and evening on lead/sniffy walks.

His lead waking is awful. We don’t let him pull and will stop when he does and reset/change direction. He will lunge to sniff a particular spot and has pulled me over once or twice when it’s been unexpected.

We keep pots of treats out for small training sessions say if the kettle is boiling/need a 5 min screen break from wfh. He gets puzzles/lickimats/kongs, you name it but is still basically feral.

We put in a lot of time of settling and keeping things calm but he is driving me up the wall. We have had to abandon working on leaving him alone (dogs in different parts of the house as he can be relentless with older dog and I want her to have space) as he’s just too much and I dread to think what I would come back to. I know I can proof the room he is in but he chews/dogs things that I can’t move.

I can’t bear the thought that he won’t improve. In a month we plan to build him up to running with my husband but I cant see that really helping when he already gets a lot of exercise and I don’t want to train an athlete.

I’m just at a loss about what else we can do. It’s really getting to and I feel so down.

I should say, older dog a similarly challenging breed mix but this is next level. Older dog is brilliant with commands/tricks/walking and so it’s not like we haven’t done all of this before.

I have a BC similar age. I feel your pain. But she's only entering adolescence. Of course it will get better. Was your last dog a collie or collie-cross? They remain mega-pains for a long time before turning into superdogs.

On lead walking there's a figure 8 game (not figure 8 lead) you can look up on youtube. Its an extension of stopping and changing direction but it helps our girl focus on us and has really helped with pulling.

Also have you read Control Unleashed? Its full of great games for dogs who need help to settle and focus and there are trainers who specialise in control unleashed methods, especially those doing agility. You don't need to compete to do intro to agility. Your dog might prefer that to obedience.

Finally it isn't an issue if your dog still needs a treat to do something. We get hung up on the idea that dogs should do stuff because we say so.But with collies in particular they do stuff because we say so AND they can see why. That might be because they have a drive to herd the flock too. Or it might be they can see the treat or the toy in our hand. We aren't failing as owners if we work with our dogs drives and need for motivation. There's another brilliant behaviourist called Patricia McConnell who has BCs and she says she gives treats sometimes throughout her dogs lives. Her books are good to read.

If treat works to make him obey & he's not got a weight problem, just use the treat. Don't make this harder than it has to be.

Hang in there. There is nothing in your post that suggests this dog will be anything other than a good dog when he settles down. Adolescence is the worst time. He should be so much better in a year.

I think your expectations are too high really, a lot of this sounds like typical teenage behaviour

One dog trainer said that most dogs need treats for commands until they’re 2! Otherwise they’re wise on to what you’re asking them to do and won’t do it. What’s the reason you don’t want to treat him?

if he’s a collie cross he will do really well from having a job to do. Have you thought about doing agility classes with him?

No not a collie/collie cross, I’d love to say but she’s a rare and random mix and it would probably be outing. Think a mix of two working breeds that have longer maturity periods, super energetic and one of the breeds being well know for being stubborn. She was pain in the backside but just seemed a bit more streetwise that behaving like quite frankly an arsehole wasn’t getting her anywhere.

We have been doing obedience just really to have a framework for his training, and we knew he’d be a bit trickier than older dog. Honestly it’s all very basic stuff but he just behaves like a loon. Focus is a big issue, honestly think sometimes he has a goldfish memory and every thing is brand new and hence constant excitement the way he carries on. Thats the only way I can think to describe him!

I’ll have a look at those books, thanks for the suggestions, at our wits end!

Some dogs are much more challenging than others, but for most 10 months old (until around 2 years old) is the time when you put in the work and just have blind faith on it coming good in the end - with little indication it will. It's like walking a journey blindfolded, trusting you'll find the right destination in the end.

Whilst some things won't change, the dog you have at 10 months is very likely to be totally unrecognisable from the dog you'll have at 2 years.

I'd keep up the consistency of rewarding everything you want but also look to strenthen the bond between you. It's really a great foundation for the future, so anything contructive you can do that taps into this dog's interests - agilty is one obvious suggestion, scent work, simple games of hide and seek.

My last dog behaved as you describe: he would do nothing in training classes (too distracted) - not even for treats. He would lunge and pull my arm out of my shoulder without warning when he saw something that interested him. He would search out shoes and socks and then chew them if he could find any. Everyone told me I needed to be stronger with him. I could see he just really struggled with self control and ignored them. Instead I perservered in a calm manner, going through training over and over even when it looked like he was ignoring it all. Always prioritising maintaining a good bond between us.

He is now all grown and none of the bad behaviours exist anymore.

Now he will do anything for praise, loves to 'get things right' and never pulls. He never chews anything - though still will bring you a sock if he's found one! Everyone we meet jokes about how I never 'tell' him to do anything - I always just ask with a soft voice and he does it.

Keep at it

We treat most of the time it’s just things like, for example, if I call him in from the garden he will get to the door and look to see if it looks like he’s getting a treat. No sign of a treat then he goes back off for a frolic.

We we’re waiting until he is a year old for agility, will he even cope if he isn’t listening to basically anything?

The teenage stage can be awful and I'd never want to go through it again with our dog. She's a mini poodle and at that age I was regularly saying to DH that I'm sending her back to the breeder. Never did obviously, just letting off steam. She was nippy and constantly biting at our ankles and pulling our clothes. Everything we'd trained her on went out the window. But we kept going and one day she just stopped doing those things and began to play nicely.

I can't offer much advice but wanted to say you aren't alone and from what I know, this is a normal but frustrating stage. Especially with these smart breeds of dogs. Keep the training going and know that you're working towards a well trained dog and that it is likely to be over in the next year or so.

"sometimes he has a goldfish memory and every thing is brand new and hence constant excitement" !!! yes totally know this one. Every day a new chance to cause chaos.

Collies vary so much but my current one seems a lot like your cross. She's really smart, but that doesn't remotely mean she wants to do what I want her to do!

Border collie owner here who is 4 years old. We did puppy classes but found he got frustrated having to wait his turn to do an exercise, we were quite glad when they finished and we didn’t continue with the next level. We turned a corner when he was around 8 months old and tried calming him down by putting on a spare lead and telling him to lay down and stay calm. Even now when he gets too excited or barking at the window we put the lead on and he instantly lays down and sleeps. We also had to go back to basics with him at 10 months old, I don’t think they forget training, but just like teenagers try their luck not listening. I think you know the more exercise you give, the more they expect. So be careful with the running and to start with short distances and when he’s fully grown at 2 years old, you can do more. Do you have a crate that you can train him to go in when you go out and leave him. I started leaving my boy just for 5 minutes, came back, made a fuss of him, gave him a treat and the next time I left for 10 minutes and so on, increasing the amount of time left. I had a camera on him so could see how he got on, most of the time he just slept, but sometimes he would bark a few times, then lay down and sleep.

If treats focus him then use treats! Don't see it as some kind of failure, you have to use whatever motivates him and if that is food then great!

I still use treats on walks with my reactive 7 year old to get her to focus on me. It works brilliantly.

Sounds like adolescence to me. Good puppy, learns well, behaves then seemingly forgets everything they've learned. Been there several times. Perseverance, patience and consistency tend to win through in the end, but it can be very demoralising and frustrating. Can take a while for them to 'grow up', too. I feel your pain, OP.

I do have to pop a lead on him sometimes, sometimes he settles right away when I ask or he gets frustrated and barks. It’s mainly early evening when he has like puppy zoomies but as if he were on speed. It’s not fair on older dog who by that time of the day is ready for a chill.

He sleeps in his crate at night but we might try it in the day and work up to leaving him alone in it if he’s coping ok. He seemed to hate the crate in the day when we tried it and would chill more if he just had his bed to lie on.

Is your dog a lab x collie? Sounds exactly like my dog. She still stubborn but she’s a lot better now she’s 14 months old… but she definitely knows when you have a treat and when you don’t and is much more likely to perform for treats.

she’s apparently 1/4 collie and 3/4 lab. You wouldn’t know she’s got any collie in her as she looks like a typical lab… but I can spot the collie traits sometimes.

He is a collie/Breton spaniel cross so essentially hard wired for chaos! I would say mostly collie but sniffs like the Breton.

Scentwork! Also DH is trying to train our dog to sniff on cue - apparently this is dead useful as sniffing calms them down and you're essentially teaching them to do something to calm down on cue. Though that's the theory, I haven't seen it work yet, DH does a lot more training than me and not everything he tries works. But definitely look up scentwork for a dog with a big brain and a big nose.

At 10 months, you are bang in the middle of the hardest part of dog ownership, and with a spaniel/collie mix, you're not going to have a calm dog for a good few years yet (sorry!).

My beagle is four and still requires treats in training and to come back in from the garden or on walks. Some dogs are just highly food motivated and won't be bothered by praise or being told they're a good boy. So, if treats work for your dog, use them - don't make your life harder than it has to be.

I know some trainers will say you should be able to phase the treats out, but IME as a dog walker, that's really not the case for many dogs. Lots of the adult dogs I walk are still highly food/treat motivated - and I actually think it's a positive thing to get your dog to work for all/most of their food, rather than just feeding it out of bowls.

I agree with the suggestion to do some scentwork as it doesn't harm the joints and encourages lots of calm behaviour - so what about scattering his kibble in the garden for him to sniff out at meal times? Or shutting him away, hiding it around the house and getting him to "go find"?

It will get better as he gets older and calmer, but for now, just keep at it and please don't be afraid to use treats and food to get him to listen to you!

Maybe try some for dog style exercises for focus or stop the obedience classes and go to a for fun gun gun dog trainer. It will give your dog more of a reason to listen and engage with your commands. They also tend to be outside so a much more relaxed atmosphere
if you’re getting stressed in classes then your dog is likely to pick up on that and feed off your upset and it becomes a bit of a spiral. I find the village hall format (if your inside) a nightmare for high energy breeds.
rather than running with your dog, would your partner maybe be interested in something like mantrailing? The mental effort for your dog will be great at tiring them out without training an athlete and they’ll be able to get out and about.
I also find keeping a training diary really helpful. It lets me see what I need to work on, but also to read back and see the little bits of progress.

Why would it be outing? There's literally hundreds of people on here.

My labrador is almost 8 and still stands at the back door and won't come in without a treat! I just see this as part of her clever personality and we laugh about it! Don't be so hard on yourself or your dog, he sounds lovely 😊

I’d treat like mad. Break it into the teeniest pieces. I’d also be wary of the running. Figs get their stimulation from the sniffing and stopping as well, it’s not just the exercise.

Watching

Just that both of our dogs are random crosses and anyone that knew us and what they are could guess it was me posting potentially that’s all! I know there are hundreds on here but you never know!

I had a Border Collie cross Belgian Shepherd a very long time (we’re talking decades) ago, that was just the same as a youngster.

Village hall training was absolutely the wrong environment for her, she took forever to mature and at 10 months we had the lovely double whammy of teenager plus high energy dog that still hadn’t nailed the basics.

To this day she is still the only pup that has reduced me to tears. The world was far too exciting for her and she could not focus on me or listen. (Note I said could not, not would not.) I had to train her in low stimulus environments only for the first 12 or so months and manage her behaviour elsewhere, as she wasn’t sound enough on the basics that we needed for control anywhere with other dogs, people or wildlife.

What worked was calm handling, consistency and wearing out her brain instead of her body. Crucially it had to be fun and motivational, but not too stimulating or exciting. It’s a tricky balance, but it can be done. Honestly though, remaining calm and being consistent were the biggest factors, that and her finally maturing. Training basically had to be low-key, with high value rewards - her absolute favourite was eye-wateringly expensive turkey sausage. We also had one particular squeaky toy that lived in my coat pocket and only came out on walks, that was her absolute favourite.

If it helps, she turned out to be one of the best dogs I have ever had. As an adult she would walk next to me off the lead in parks full of dogs and people and ignore everybody and everything. She coped with my 3 dc coming along one by one with grace and was the sweetest, most gentle, affectionate girl with them.

If he isn’t ready for you to reduce the treat rewards, then don’t. Just make sure, for when you are out and about that treats are the absolute best thing ever and broken down into tiny pieces. I don’t agree with trainers who say you shouldn’t treat to reward the behaviour you want. Why would the dog want to essentially go against their instinct and nature unless it’s really rewarding for them? Watch some Kikopup or Chirag Patel videos on YouTube and notice how often they treat.

Also, pick your battles. Do you really need him to be obedience trained or do you just want a calm, confident companion, with a strong bond to you who knows he needs to come back when he’s called and will stay with you when required, rather than one that can produce the perfect square sit or lie down instantly when you tell him to? A lot of dog training classes are obsessed with sit/down/micro-control and it leads to people thinking their dog is only in control if they have made them go into a certain position. (I also think a lot of badly run ‘local’ dog training classes can damage the dog/person bond by some of the methods they use.) I think/hope the days of dog ‘obedience’ are numbered as people start to realise dogs needed to be treated with more respect and allowed choices, rather than effectively subjugating them into behaving like robots. Have a think about how you would like to live with him and focus on the things you need for your life and relationship with him, rather than what a local dog training class insists are ‘essential’ behaviours. Relationship based training is the way forward. (If you want to learn more about this look into Suzanne Clothier and look at Chirag Patel’s training.). Ultimately That’s what I did with my girl, trained what we needed for our life, rather than what other people thought she should know/do. I had other dogs at the time that had been trained using more traditional, although still positive methods and passed all sorts of ‘awards’ and certificates, but that wasn’t right for her and I needed to respect that.

If you are feeling completely hopeless (I do understand, been there done that) about training, maybe a few sessions with a positive trainer, rather than soldiering on alone? They will be able to observe, advise and help you train in the real world at the level your dog is able to cope with, rather than in close proximity to other dogs in a small village/church hall. The Institute of Modern Dog Trainers is a good place to look, as they are committed to only using science based, force free, motivational training methods and required to do continuous professional development to ensure they are up to date.