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The doghouse

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Original poster

Really struggling - everyday feel we made a bad decision

36 replies

Sofadog · 20/05/2022 09:27

I’ve posted before about our second dog. We were having some major issues with humping/ragging etc. In the end we decided to neuter at 10 months which was earlier than we would have liked. That was 6 weeks ago. The humping has stopped and I was under no illusion that, given we have a collie cross, he would calm down but he is just awful at the moment. He does not stop, he does not listen, has forgotten every bit of training we have done and he is really getting me down.

We are doing bronze obedience classes once a week and I am always mortified by the way he carries on. His foundation classes he aced. He basically will only respond to command if there is a treat and seems to have wised up to when there isn’t one and he’s only getting verbal praise.

He gets an off lead walk in the morning and gets to run and play with older dog (3). They chase each other so he does let off some steam. Lunch time and evening on lead/sniffy walks.

His lead waking is awful. We don’t let him pull and will stop when he does and reset/change direction. He will lunge to sniff a particular spot and has pulled me over once or twice when it’s been unexpected.

We keep pots of treats out for small training sessions say if the kettle is boiling/need a 5 min screen break from wfh. He gets puzzles/lickimats/kongs, you name it but is still basically feral.

We put in a lot of time of settling and keeping things calm but he is driving me up the wall. We have had to abandon working on leaving him alone (dogs in different parts of the house as he can be relentless with older dog and I want her to have space) as he’s just too much and I dread to think what I would come back to. I know I can proof the room he is in but he chews/dogs things that I can’t move.

I can’t bear the thought that he won’t improve. In a month we plan to build him up to running with my husband but I cant see that really helping when he already gets a lot of exercise and I don’t want to train an athlete.

I’m just at a loss about what else we can do. It’s really getting to and I feel so down.

OP posts:

bluetongue · 21/05/2022 13:06

This is why I quit training classes with my whippet. He was brilliant when the treats were there then completely lost interest once we had to do commands without treats. He was just the biggest, craziest ball of energy as a pup.

I had to stop taking him on a local beach whippet walk because he was out of control. After a year we returned. He now walks next to me on the beach without a lead and I have got numerous ‘your dog is so well behaved, what’s your secret’ comments.

He’s my first dog so I had no idea how much he’d change. These days he’s nearly perfect (apart from the food stealing, that’s still shocking).

thevampirelestat · 21/05/2022 19:30

Everything @TranquilBlue said - amazing post!
I have a "difficult" breed and struggled a lot with her teenage years. Time has helped, but also reframing what I expect of her and what she actually needs to have a fulfilling life.
I'm no expert but I wonder if he's a bit over exercised? Scentwork could perhaps replace the lunchtime walk and tire him out mentally instead.

Purplehonesty2 · 21/05/2022 20:15

Our 18mo working BC is a total pain in the arse too. Sounds exactly like yours.

He's only better if he's had a 5k walk minimum and then he's slightly less annoying.

Good thing he's cute!

Dh can't walk him as he won't come back so I do 4 x 5k walks on my days off and rely on blasting about the fields when we are working.

He terrorises our older dog, who, when BC was smaller, would pin him and that was that. Now BC is bigger than him he gets really annoyed and the fighting starts.

Fun and games - thank god for kennels!! I couldn't have him in the house it would be wrecked.

Original poster

Sofadog · 22/05/2022 07:21

Thank for all the advice everyone! It’s interesting what everyone has said about the training classes…at home, he nails all his exercises and even in more distracting places like out and about, whilst he’s far from perfect he’s still at least a little bit with me! I may as well not be in the room which yes is in a village hall.

I will look at scent work for him. I’m torn about agility as he is like lightning but when we practice things like a spin or him weaving around my legs for ‘middle’ he gets so hyped up that he may not be able to focus.

He gets about 90mins a day at the moment, that’s about 40mins off through field and a wooded area where he can have a good sniff as well. Other walks are mainly sniffy walks but on the lead. Sometimes he has more at the weekend as we usually get a hike in somewhere new although on lead and we have been building him up slowly.

Yesterday he was pretty good, difference was as it was a Saturday and we were off we had him and other dog out and about, had a beer at the pub, mooched around our local market and he could sit and watch the world go by. He even sat with older dog very patiently whilst we picked up dog treats from one of the stalls and the holder commented on how calm they both were despite being faced with a stall full of goodies.

This morning he tried to dig into the sofa at 6am after his morning wee so clearly he had a good nights sleep 😬 obviously we stop him and give him something else to do.

We do take both dogs out and about with us where we can and we’re lucky that almost everywhere around us is dog friendly. Neither of them are dogs that enjoy being cooped up. Should say we don’t take them into crowded pubs/cafes etc but a beer garden where they can sit and have some space. That’s what’s important to us I suppose as we are always out somewhere so I suppose he only needs enough to cope out and about.

OP posts:

solvendie · 22/05/2022 18:15

TranquilBlue · 21/05/2022 10:20

I had a Border Collie cross Belgian Shepherd a very long time (we’re talking decades) ago, that was just the same as a youngster.

Village hall training was absolutely the wrong environment for her, she took forever to mature and at 10 months we had the lovely double whammy of teenager plus high energy dog that still hadn’t nailed the basics.

To this day she is still the only pup that has reduced me to tears. The world was far too exciting for her and she could not focus on me or listen. (Note I said could not, not would not.) I had to train her in low stimulus environments only for the first 12 or so months and manage her behaviour elsewhere, as she wasn’t sound enough on the basics that we needed for control anywhere with other dogs, people or wildlife.

What worked was calm handling, consistency and wearing out her brain instead of her body. Crucially it had to be fun and motivational, but not too stimulating or exciting. It’s a tricky balance, but it can be done. Honestly though, remaining calm and being consistent were the biggest factors, that and her finally maturing. Training basically had to be low-key, with high value rewards - her absolute favourite was eye-wateringly expensive turkey sausage. We also had one particular squeaky toy that lived in my coat pocket and only came out on walks, that was her absolute favourite.

If it helps, she turned out to be one of the best dogs I have ever had. As an adult she would walk next to me off the lead in parks full of dogs and people and ignore everybody and everything. She coped with my 3 dc coming along one by one with grace and was the sweetest, most gentle, affectionate girl with them.

If he isn’t ready for you to reduce the treat rewards, then don’t. Just make sure, for when you are out and about that treats are the absolute best thing ever and broken down into tiny pieces. I don’t agree with trainers who say you shouldn’t treat to reward the behaviour you want. Why would the dog want to essentially go against their instinct and nature unless it’s really rewarding for them? Watch some Kikopup or Chirag Patel videos on YouTube and notice how often they treat.

Also, pick your battles. Do you really need him to be obedience trained or do you just want a calm, confident companion, with a strong bond to you who knows he needs to come back when he’s called and will stay with you when required, rather than one that can produce the perfect square sit or lie down instantly when you tell him to? A lot of dog training classes are obsessed with sit/down/micro-control and it leads to people thinking their dog is only in control if they have made them go into a certain position. (I also think a lot of badly run ‘local’ dog training classes can damage the dog/person bond by some of the methods they use.) I think/hope the days of dog ‘obedience’ are numbered as people start to realise dogs needed to be treated with more respect and allowed choices, rather than effectively subjugating them into behaving like robots. Have a think about how you would like to live with him and focus on the things you need for your life and relationship with him, rather than what a local dog training class insists are ‘essential’ behaviours. Relationship based training is the way forward. (If you want to learn more about this look into Suzanne Clothier and look at Chirag Patel’s training.). Ultimately That’s what I did with my girl, trained what we needed for our life, rather than what other people thought she should know/do. I had other dogs at the time that had been trained using more traditional, although still positive methods and passed all sorts of ‘awards’ and certificates, but that wasn’t right for her and I needed to respect that.

If you are feeling completely hopeless (I do understand, been there done that) about training, maybe a few sessions with a positive trainer, rather than soldiering on alone? They will be able to observe, advise and help you train in the real world at the level your dog is able to cope with, rather than in close proximity to other dogs in a small village/church hall. The Institute of Modern Dog Trainers is a good place to look, as they are committed to only using science based, force free, motivational training methods and required to do continuous professional development to ensure they are up to date.

I love this approach and attitude. Like with children, I think that prioritising a bond and trying to understand motivation behind behaviour is key to harmonious family life. I do think that some dogs (and children) have more challenging behaviours if they are out of synch with our own approaches however, I think it is for us as the responsible adult to adapt our approaches to help them feel secure. In reality, we may not have a lifestyle that is compatible to do this and, unlike children, there is the opportunity to rehome and get a better fit for the dog without causing further harm.

CarrieMoonbeams · 22/05/2022 18:33

Great post @TranquilBlue .

Just my thought on treats @Sofadog - I always thought to myself "Well, do I work for nothing? No? Then why should my dogs?"

As a PP said, I take it out of their daily food rations.

Good luck.

Original poster

Sofadog · 22/05/2022 20:59

Wow @solvendie not sure what to say to the suggestion that I’m causing my dog harm? I’m very thankful for all of the suggestions and advice from all posters but, as with our first dog, who by the way is a very well trained, adjusted, happy dog (and also was not an easy dog at all), we are putting the effort in and trying to seek input to help him.

OP posts:

GuyFawkesDay · 22/05/2022 21:11

I totally agree with the idea of motivation with what works for them.

My idiot spaniel adores food and ball or gundog dummy games His behaviour improves no end as soon as the latter two appear.

He is absolutely awful at KC classes. Overstimulated, barky and daft. Cannot comprehend going through the randomly placed gate in the middle of the field. Goes round it then sits like a very good boy every time. Perfect out on walks with actual gate though. Which is what is important.

Do what works for you and your dog.

PestorPeston · 22/05/2022 21:21

He sounds like he is coming along nicely. He's not legging it to the horizon.

I have a gsp x gwp, she is hard work. Intelligent, athletic adolescent dogs are. I know a Bretton and it was as bonkers as mine. He will grow up and be lovely, in a couple of years.

We did lots of clicker training, use his food as the reward. He makes eye contact, you click and treat, quickly. Ideal game for when the kettle is boiling. Practice that for a couple of weeks in every situation. Then transfer to loose lead walking.

Make him use his brain loads, it is exhausting. He won't tire on walks, he will just get fitter.

MagnoliaTaint · 24/05/2022 14:25

GuyFawkesDay · 22/05/2022 21:11

I totally agree with the idea of motivation with what works for them.

My idiot spaniel adores food and ball or gundog dummy games His behaviour improves no end as soon as the latter two appear.

Do what works for you and your dog.

I recall the look on my dog's face when I suggested she go through the fake gate. 'What the fuck would I go through it for when I can walk round?' was exactly what she was saying to me.

MagnoliaTaint · 24/05/2022 14:27

Was your last dog a collie or collie-cross? They remain mega-pains for a long time before turning into superdogs.

My lurcher (deerhound/collie) is 2 in July. Can I ask when they do the transformation from mega-pain into superdog? I've been told 2 and have been looking forward to it ...

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