Just discovered my pups mum has been bred again

[WetRainbowRoses]

I just feel quite sad and cross about it really.

The advert isn’t available anymore but the timing coupled with the fact my boy is almost 7 months old now, I assume she’s been bred straight away on the next season again.

I feel bad for the bitch but I feel quite personally betrayed and a bit stupid/naive too.

My boy came from a local couple/hobby breeders, just having a few litters from their family pets (I was told that they were undecided whether this would be the bitch’s last litter or if they would have just one more then spay her)

I wanted a puppy from two loved family pets that had been brought up in a home environment, I know without a doubt he was definitely born and raised in their family home, as were this most recent litter I’ve found photographs of, the breeders were quite chatty to me and very forthcoming with regular photos and video clips and I really felt that they really loved their family pets and cared about the puppies and where they ended up, how they got on.

I sent quite a few messages and photographs to his breeder with updates as my boy got older as I thought they’d like to see how their puppy was getting on but after a while I did get the feeling they weren’t really as interested in how his looks had changed or what new tricks he’d learnt etc as I thought they would be.
Despite that, I really was silly enough to put that feeling aside assuming they were maybe busy with work or similar and felt that we all liked and respected each other and they appreciated knowing at least one of the pups definitely had a lovely home.

MIL is really smitten with our boy and I had told the breeder this and asked them to let me know if they decided to have a final litter (before I knew they were back to backing obvs) as MIL would really like a puppy from the same parents and they assured me they would, now, on finding out they’ve bred her again and not bothered to get in touch with me (not that I would have told MIL knowing what I know now) I feel like they are basically viewing their bitch and these puppies just as living money and probably didn’t contact me as they knew they shouldn’t be doing what they are doing and thought I might report them.

I’m questioning now if they were ever bothered at all how my lad was getting on or if it was always purely about the cash.

Im feeling pretty stupid.
I remember my DH rolling his eyes when I mentioned to him that the breeder had said that they might have one more then spay and I had told him not to be like that, they were lovely people and not just breeding for the money. Ugh. 🤦🏻‍♀️

No - if you breed animals you aren't a decent person, you view animals as less than humans, unless you think humans should also breed to accommodate others and in which case you are also wrong. Breeding animals in any capacity is absolutely disgusting and should be illegal.

No - if you breed animals you aren't a decent person, you view animals as less than humans, unless you think humans should also breed to accommodate others and in which case you are also wrong. Breeding animals in any capacity is absolutely disgusting and should be illegal.
Sorry, what?

Animals are different from humans. If we let dogs just get on with it, have you any idea what it would be like? they wouldn't settle down in happy little nuclear families and use contraception.

If we didn't breed dogs, in our current society we couldn't have dogs. We've had dogs for somewhere over 20,000 years. They are the most amazing animals: my life would be massively diminished if it didn't have dogs in it. And the dogs I have seem to be remarkably happy.

If we didn't breed other animals... ah, shit, no, not going there tonight. I've wasted too much of my life arguing with animal rights extremists who have no idea how the countryside works, and I'm going to bed.

@WetRainbowRoses

There are people who breed family pets with a lot of thought and consideration, and check out the people who buy the puppies: I have known several This is unfortunately what I thought I was paying for.

I get sick of the hatred for all breeders, when many breeders are decent people producing good dogs
Me too.
A good friend of my DH is a dog breeder.
A really excellent one - DNA tests, Hip scores, carefully considered studs, puppy contracts, the lot.
Unfortunately her breed is not one me or DH would ever want else I’d have bought a pup from her instead.

Hopefully you can now see this is an imperfect business. Any industry that allows abuse like this is horrible. The 'good' breeders aren't much better. They're still making money from farming dogs when there's no need for it and it's encouraging people to see dogs as desirable breeds etc. Rather than individual animals.

That is a shame for the bitch OP, but breeding from two ‘family pets’ is quite the red flag here.

I bred from my family pet last year. She is a gundog breed that works in winter and shows in summer, was hip and elbow scored, eye tested and DNA tested.
I drove for three hours to bring her to the stud dog that I thought would improve on her faults and was also fully tested. He was imported from Europe to increase the genetic diversity of the breed in this country, the resulting litter’s coefficient of inbreeding was 0.0% over 8 generations.
I kept a bitch puppy out of the litter. I’m undecided about breeding my first bitch again, despite having people wanting a puppy from the same cross again and the resulting puppies being of genuine value to the breed.
I’m also in touch with all the puppy’s owners, I contact them first in many cases to point out upcoming breed shows and training near them, remind them about worming and vaccinations when my puppy is getting done, and asking for up to date pictures so I can compare the one I kept to her siblings.

Breeding and buying isn’t inherently bad, nobody that bought one of my pups was going to rescue one instead and they’ve all got exactly what they wanted. My breed isn’t often in rescue anyway.
Buying a puppy bred from family pets doesn’t guarantee anything unfortunately.

This is why I wouldn’t buy a puppy from anyone not recommended by my breed club. Or someone I knew exceeding well.
Decent breeders care about the breed of dog they have. They breed when they want the next generation. Not to sell online to strangers. Not to sell at inflated costs to satisfy demand.

That is a shame for the bitch OP, but breeding from two ‘family pets’ is quite the red flag here
I did know this was considered a red flag because of DHs friend.
However, DHs friend breeds for the show ring so studs are carefully selected to complement the bitch.
I specifically did not want a dog bred for the show ring because I don’t like the extremely short nose and severely rounded head called for in the breed standard.

I was specifically looking for pups out of family pets that had the less extreme body type I was after.
When I found these breeders I met both of the parents and liked the temperaments of them both, the breeders themselves were friendly and made me feel at ease and I got photos and videos multiple times a week as they grew so felt very satisfied that I was buying puppies from a happy, loving family home out of two much loved pets.

Report them.

So you don’t like the show version of the breed?
But you’re happy to take a pup from two unhealthtested dogs owned by people happy to cash in on the popularity of the breed?

Why are you so sure they were family pets brought up in a home environment? You’ve said this a few times.

So you don’t like the show version of the breed?
No because the show version is unhealthy.
I don’t agree with brachycephalic dogs.

But you’re happy to take a pup from two unhealthtested dogs owned by people happy to cash in on the popularity of the breed?
The Kennel Club do not advise any health tests for his breed.
Most KC breeders, included those that are assured do not do any health testing.

I wanted a healthier built version of the same breed that had been bred in a living family home out of loved family pets.

It sounds like you have bought a brachycephalic breed from a backyard breeder in a misguided attempt to get a less extreme version of whatever breed you picked.

It perhaps would have been more ethical to have chosen a different breed, one where breeding towards the actual breed standard produces healthy dogs, then you would have had more and better choices of good breeders to build a relationship with before getting a puppy.

So you don’t agree with brachycephalic dogs? But you bought one?
The KC is not the beacon of best practice here.

Why are you so sure they were family pets brought up in a home environment? You’ve said this a few times
Because I first saw them at three weeks old and was sent photos and videos multiple times a week as they grew up.

The advert I discovered had photographs of the poor mum pregnant and photographs of the next lot of pups in the whelping pen along with photos of the older pups.

So yeah I’m quite sure they were born there.

At the time, the fact the pups were so young reassured me because them coming from a family home instead of a dirty crate somewhere was so important to me, but looking back, three weeks was surely quite a risk with regards to germs.
So that’s probably a second red flag isn’t it ☹️
Unless the puppies would have been immune to diseases like parvo and such from mums milk at that young age?

It sounds like you have bought a brachycephalic breed from a backyard breeder in a misguided attempt to get a less extreme version of whatever breed you picked
Basically yeah.
Technically he probably is classed as ‘brachycephalic’ because his nose is shorter than say, a labradors but it’s considerably longer than ‘standard’ and his skull is domed but nowhere near to the breed standard.
Both versions of his breed (Chihuahua) have been found as skeletal remains and in artwork but the Kennel Club only recognises the one shape.

It perhaps would have been more ethical to have chosen a different breed, one where breeding towards the actual breed standard produces healthy dogs, then you would have had more and better choices of good breeders to build a relationship with before getting a puppy
Perhaps.
But I wanted that particular breed, the KC doesn’t advise any health tests for it at all so a KC breeder may not have been much better.
Puppy buying is a minefield anyway regardless of breed and I (wrongly) truly thought I’d found a pup bred by caring people.

We got fooled like this, OP, I used to send the breeder photos and updates…. She didn’t even remember who we were or which litter our darling girl came from!!
I felt awful, had done so much research, and still got fooled!!
This isn’t a large breed dog over Leicestershire by any chance?

You can’t really grumble that the people who bred your puppy are unethical at best, and puppy farmers at worst. There are reasons that these things are red flags, they’re not just people being fussy.

My puppies had homes lined up before my girl was in season. My puppy people were sent a video of my girl having her pregnancy confirmed via ultrasound. They were sent many, many photos and videos.
They were allowed to come to see the puppies at 4 weeks old, but with shoes and outside coats off, hand sanitizer and masks (I was pregnant as well)
They weren’t allowed to choose their puppy, I allocated them at 6 weeks according to temperament and what they wanted the puppy for.
I was able to do this because I’d built a relationship with the puppy people spanning many months, so I knew which pup would suit which owners.

It’s too late now, you have your slightly less brachycephalic, unethically bred dog. You have to live with the fact that the people that bred him weren’t doing it for good reasons. You can make better choices if you get another dog though, and I’d start with picking a breed where you actually agree with the breed standard and the direction the breed is going.

So you don’t agree with brachycephalic dogs? But you bought one?
There’s a pretty big difference between the breed standard version dog with a tiny short nose and ridiculously domed head and often quite short legs too vs the non standard much longer nose, mildly domed head, longer legs and larger size.
There is evidence to suggest the latter is typically healthier hence why I wanted one.
Health was my main concern with my boy and it was my main concern with my other dog too.
Health testing doesn’t really come into it because the vast majority of Chihuahua breeders don’t health test given the KC believes it unnecessary

There are some great Chi breeders out there, they’re not all horribly deformed with poppy-out eyes!
There’s a lady at the ringcraft class I go to who has some real crackers, she does really well at shows with them too. I’m not a small dog person either and these are charming, if a bit barky.
I might have been a bit mean OP, and I’m sorry you got taken in.
Poor little mum though, those aren’t small litters for such a tiny dog, and back to back too.

@WetRainbowRoses hips and CM etc screening? Should be done.
Majority don’t? Majority aren’t good breeders.

There are some great Chi breeders out there, they’re not all horribly deformed with poppy-out eyes!
I did look at KC breeders too, I found three that health test for luxating patella one that also heart screens.
I did consider their puppies but they were all snubby nosed and proper apple headed.
I didn’t want to run the risk of things like BOAS.
I’m unsure if I’ll get another dog in future but if I do I’ll be much careful that’s for sure.

I might have been a bit mean OP, and I’m sorry you got taken in
It’s okay.
I have been spectacularly naive unfortunately.

Poor little mum though, those aren’t small litters for such a tiny dog, and back to back too
Indeed ☹️
I feel awful for her.

hips and CM etc screening? Should be done
Not for Chihuahuas.
In America the AKC recommends patella screening, heart screen, MRI for SM/CM but the UK Kennel Club don’t advise that any health tests are necessary at all.

Majority don’t? Majority aren’t good breeders
Well true but then if you are breeding to Kennel Club breed standard and the Kennel Club tells you no health tests are recommended, I guess a lot wouldn’t bother.

I’m sorry you’ve found out the hard way.

’I wanted a puppy from two loved family pets that had been brought up in a home environment’

I think that’s where you went wrong. It’s a fallacy. I love my dog. That’s why she’s neutered. To have unneutered male and female dogs living together means you’re actively looking to breed them or you don’t care enough to prevent it.

Good breeders are looking to make money but they’re also looking to breed healthy dogs. They make sure health checks are done on the dogs before they consider breeding them. They don’t necessarily own the male dog because they’re looking for the best bloodline not just the nearest option.

I think you're more angry at yourself for falling for the scam.

These are the rules around licensed dog breeding.
www.gov.uk/guidance/dog-breeding-licence-england

How much are they charging for the pups?