teaching recall without treats

[steppemum]

Bigfluffdog has just arrived at our house, had him for 4 days. A mixed breed, he looks and behaves like a golden retriever.
Big, soft, cuddly, friendly, and really wants to play with other dogs.
He is 18 months old, rehomed from a family who couldn't cope because he was too big, strong and bouncy.
He does have quite a bit of training, walks OK on a lead, knows sit, stay, on your bed, paw etc.

He has no recall. Talking to the previous owner (PO) he comes back when called if he wants to. If he sees another dog, he is REALLY keen to go and play and so runs off across the field, bounces round the other dog and plays. Very stubborn zero recall in this context. So PO would let him off in the field and he would run all over, up to other dogs, bouncy, big, loud and sometimes barking. Apparently some owners of smaller dogs were not very happy! (not shit Sherlock)

We have not let him off the lead, because to me, that is not acceptable (approaching other dogs) So we need to train him.

He is not food orientated at all. Happy for a treat, but really not that bothered. He like his toys, but not enough to use for recall. He isn't interested in a ball, squeaky or otherwise.

In the garden, if you call his name, he recognises it, and turns round. Then does a playbow and springs up and bounces all over the place, running away and back again. So knows his name, but really no idea about coming back.
He was very under-exercised. PO took him out 2-3 times a week for 45 minutes. He is now getting 1.5 hours in morning and 30 minutes in the evening. he has already massively calmed down, due to exercise.

Our old dog was very treat orientated and also really wanted to come to you , so training him, he would come to you because he was person orientated.

Just no idea where to start with training really with Bigdog.
He has no reason to come back! And the lure of other dogs is so huge.

Any ideas?

If you want to see him in all his beautiful fluffiness, look here
bigfluffdog

What treats have you tried? My dogs would have no interest in coming for kibble, but if you have hot dog sausage, dried offal, or current fave of smoked fish skin they come skidding over

Have you tried really high value human food? Mine has no interest in kibble or dog treats on walks but he'll do anything for a cocktail sausage or piece if steak 🤣

You havent had him very long so it is not surprising that he is not yet that interested in treats out and about.

Give him time to settle in increase his focus on you in the house before you start to expect him to focus on you out and about.

I guess he eats as he is alive so use his food allowance as a s fun time to build focus on you. Look at the way you deliver the treats. So boring to just have it handed to him but if you flick a bit of kibble across the floor it becomes way more exciting and fun to chase and eat.

Hide it under you hands and make a big play of how exciting it is and pretned to not let him have it - he will soon be desperate to have the food.

Orinetation game and food circle would be the place to start indoors to help with recall and increase the value of the food treat.

However give him time to settle in and get used to his new routine.

Hmm, good idea, I'll get a few things and see what he goes for.

he just isn't that bothered by food, I can't see food ever being better than another dog.

But I suppose that getting that return fixed in him wiht high value food would be start.

I am planning in a few weeks, to regularly walk with another dog, so he gets some of his needing to play out of his system too.

@PollyRoulllson

You havent had him very long so it is not surprising that he is not yet that interested in treats out and about.

Give him time to settle in increase his focus on you in the house before you start to expect him to focus on you out and about.

I guess he eats as he is alive so use his food allowance as a s fun time to build focus on you. Look at the way you deliver the treats. So boring to just have it handed to him but if you flick a bit of kibble across the floor it becomes way more exciting and fun to chase and eat.

Hide it under you hands and make a big play of how exciting it is and pretned to not let him have it - he will soon be desperate to have the food.

Orinetation game and food circle would be the place to start indoors to help with recall and increase the value of the food treat.

However give him time to settle in and get used to his new routine.

Thank, great ideas.

We are not doing any training yet. It is really early days. I am not sure he even recognises our voices yet.

But PO also said he wouldn't come back for a treat if there were other dogs round.

We use treats and a toy with our 6 month old labrador. The treats are usually his kibble mixed with tiny cubes of cheese (I just keep a pot in the fridge) but an even better reward for him is a fluffy thing on a string. He literally stops everything to come and get it! The trick is to play with them with it but not actually let them keep it so hide it in your pocket till you need it and it's always with you so you are THE best thing to go to.

Orinetation game and food circle

can you explain these a bit more?

Tug-E-Nuff - Faux Rabbit Fur Squeaky Chaser (Blue) https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B09NC79JNN/ref=cmswwrcppapiglttiMN5QMR83XH8ERQ72HMQN

I know loads of people do work with high value food and for some dogs it works but treat delivery is so much more effective and so underused.

All dogs chase add movement to the food and you have a fully driven dog.

So for example for recall if you throw the treat through your legs on some occasions the dog will chase back to get the treat, if you do a 360 turn when the dog gets to you and they move around with you , you will get a faster recall, if you run away from your dog and then throw the food forward the dog will chase to you.

If they have had a grounding of the orientation game they will instantly flick back to you after eating the treat. Recall then to the dog means fun fun fun,not oh a bit of steak and back on the lead!

Dogs have very few tast receptors way less than us and tbh barely taste the food they swallow as treats. They can smell it which helps but upping the value of the food may not really make a huge difference, it may short time but not for long lasting results.

“he just isn't that bothered by food, I can't see food ever being better than another dog.”

That’s not actually what you’re doing when you train recall though, I mean some dogs might choose food over other things, but a lot wouldn’t.

What you’re doing is conditioning the behaviour, practicing it often enough and in enough different situations that they don’t actually think about whether it’s worth it or not.

So you start off inside, where most dogs will accept pretty much anything as being a reward anyway and you wouldn’t ever try to recall them where they might not do it for really quite a long time.

He wouldnt come back to PO because they had not worked or trained him. He is in a new situation with owners willing to put in the effort.

Start off with relationshp building and recall will follow.

Orientation game is throwing small kibble or treats but they need to be big enough for the dog to see them . Throw the treats past your dog so they have to move to get the treat, not far to start with and make sure you bowl it past his head so he sees where it is. Start indoors in a quiet place and when you would usually feed him.

Let him eat the food and when he turns back to you (he will) say yes in an excited voice and throw some food in another direction for him to chase.

Depending on his motivation and ability do this for a few bits of kibble to start with. Over time he can have his whole meal like this.

It teaches him to check in with you for as good things happen. Often this alone will give you fab recall.

When he is happy to chase food in your home, take the game into the garden where there are more distractions and then when he is good with this out and about on his long line play it on his walks.

This is when dog training becomes an art and not a science, knowing when to increase the criteria eg distractions, how long to play the game for and how far to throw the food, only you on the ground can know this. But trial and error is fine!

Do not rush it to get him doing it outside take it at his time, make it fun.

If you think how many bits of kibble he eats each day your have that many opportunities to show how fab it is to hang out with you.

Food circle is similar but this time you throw one piece of food out and then reward in the heel position with several pieces of food.Over thime the dogs do not even bother to chase the one piece you throw out as it is better to stay with you and get more food.

But PO also said he wouldn't come back for a treat if there were other dogs round

That'll be because he got so little time out and about to play. Of course he wouldn't want to cut into it to go back to boring old owner who'll take him home when the fun's only just begun. He may have had plenty of food/treats with PO, but value playing more because it was rare?

So as he begins to trust that he'll be out for longer, he might become less obsessed with playing every second he can. Can you find a simiiar sized food natured dog who he can play with by mutual,consent? I was thinking that a Goldie about 9-12 months old might be the sort of play companion that wouid mean a good time for both. And they you don't even try to recall until they've begun to slow down a bit (no point in setting him up to fail!). And heaps of fuss and preferred high value treats (if there ever is such a thing) before letting him play again (so recall doesn't only mean end of playtime). Over time, he might become more able to break off earlier.

Obviously you can only do that if there is a suitable place to play, where there aren't other temptations and he's not likely to annoy other dogs!

My DDog will do an awful lot in return for cheese!

Agree very much with the advice about about you playing with him, and a treat being a part of the game. Seeing you as the source of good things (play for now, moving to play/treats, moving to treats (and playful fuss)) might be a way for him to learn tomassiciate you with Good Stuff, so it's always worth checking in with you.

I totally agree with tabulahrasa recall should alwasy be a conditioned response

It needs to be a conditioned response to a cue. eg recall word/whistle I always turn back to my owner.

Good old classical conditioning at its best. Being technical so many owners try to train using operant conditioning which gives dogs a choice and fail big time.Of course a sociable dog will prefer to be with another dog than come back for a bit of steak.

However using classical conditioning the dog will automatically turn on the recall command - think of pavlo dogs salivating when he heard the metronome same principle for recall

What you’re doing is conditioning the behaviour, practicing it often enough and in enough different situations that they don’t actually think about whether it’s worth it or not.

Yes, one of the best pieces of advice a friend gave me was recall is about training an instinctive reaction, not about the reward itself. Our lab isn't very food motivated and often has no interest in treats out and about but we've managed to train a decent recall.

We used some of the games mentioned above, only thing is we had to be very careful as she got massively excited by them and more than once it ended up with her hanging off my sleeves. Maybe not such an issue with an older dog.

@wetotter

But PO also said he wouldn't come back for a treat if there were other dogs round

That'll be because he got so little time out and about to play. Of course he wouldn't want to cut into it to go back to boring old owner who'll take him home when the fun's only just begun. He may have had plenty of food/treats with PO, but value playing more because it was rare?

So as he begins to trust that he'll be out for longer, he might become less obsessed with playing every second he can. Can you find a simiiar sized food natured dog who he can play with by mutual,consent? I was thinking that a Goldie about 9-12 months old might be the sort of play companion that wouid mean a good time for both. And they you don't even try to recall until they've begun to slow down a bit (no point in setting him up to fail!). And heaps of fuss and preferred high value treats (if there ever is such a thing) before letting him play again (so recall doesn't only mean end of playtime). Over time, he might become more able to break off earlier.

Obviously you can only do that if there is a suitable place to play, where there aren't other temptations and he's not likely to annoy other dogs!

My DDog will do an awful lot in return for cheese!

Agree very much with the advice about about you playing with him, and a treat being a part of the game. Seeing you as the source of good things (play for now, moving to play/treats, moving to treats (and playful fuss)) might be a way for him to learn tomassiciate you with Good Stuff, so it's always worth checking in with you.

I agree with this. Ddog is quite keen on treats. Previous Ddogs were keen on food but much keener on other dogs, and a breed known for terrible recall . I never achieved perfect recall with either of them, ddog two was slightly better than ddog 1, maybe I was more experienced, maybe because he was neutered, but I feel mostly it was because I gave him a lot more exercise . Your fluffdog will calm down I think, the more he gets to run and play, he is young and has been under stimulated, not surprisingly he gets very bouncy around other dogs, wants to play , and has developed bad habits around this like barking. He needs to be told off by other dogs for his barking, and learn better dog manners. Walking him with other dogs is the way to go. He needs a friend I think.

I love how the views are so different No way would I increase the interaction with dogs if I had dog that was fixated with other dogs.

Dogs get really good at what they practice and repeat.

I would however look at how I could enrich our walks together and not just let them go off self employed and make their own enjoyment

Easy peasy puppy squeezy book and high value treats, cheese & chicken

My dog will do anything for a cat treat - a bit of one of them cat sticks or a dreamy.
Some dog treats look and smell really boring. You need something stinky 😂

Is there any where near you that has a dog field that you can practice off lead recall, and also allow him to run about without being a menace to other dogs? You can't really let him off the lead in public spaces if he doesn't have recall. The more you let him play with the other dogs the more he's going to be resistant to coming back to you. You need him to be fixated on you and you need to provide his excitement and interaction. Whether that's food, toys or just making yourself the best thing in the whole world.

Our dog has pretty no existent recall. He's never off the lead as he would just run. he's not particularly food orientated when he's distracted and not a toy lover either but I'm just looking at getting him a flirt pole with a ball on the end, which I'm hoping will make me irresistable, I'd seen them for cats, but not for dogs until just recently.

No suggestions, just wanted to say he is gorgeous!

I also find it so interesting how differently people do things but often can produce the same outcome eventually.

I would make other dogs boring as hell. No playing with them at all just totally ignore them completely. At the moment it sounds like the other dog is more fun than you (sorry OP!) and I would try and change that.

I play loads of fun games in the garden first. I only use a word for recall not the name. So I would shout ‘here’ and when the dog comes be so stupidly overexcited the dog thinks the most amazing thing in the world has happened. Throw treats, cheese, play a tug game. Anything to get the dog motivated!

Once they get the idea then obviously I tone it down but for me recall should always be the jackpot because that’s the thing that’s most important to me. I need them to know I will be over the moon every single time and mum being happy is much better than running around with another dog.

It’s much easier once the dog is bonded to you and wants to please you though!

I've been working hard on recall with a young dog who isn't all that interested in food, and who is massively scent-motivated and prey-driven. As @PollyRoulllson says, mobile food is much more interesting - I play a game with her where I throw food to the right and the left, and treats she used to find much less interesting than the bloody grass (and whatever scent was on it) have increased in value to her, now even when they are stationary and held in my hand. I use pale coloured treats for this game as I can see them on the grass if neither of us spot where they fall. I also couple the treats with loads of verbal praise and some physical fuss, both of which she loves.

I'm starting to see what I hope is the start of conditioned recall. I whistled her in the other day, and her body started to recall even as her head and gaze remained fixed on something in the middle distance. Then the head caught up. It looked quite silly but I didn't care.

Total recall is an awesome book and helped when we got wolfiepup1. Expect to do weird things like run away, play hide and seek and generally make yourself sexier than a squirrel.

fishies are my dog's currency. They stink to high heaven but his focus on them is good.
Primula cheese from a tube and cutted up hotdogs are also highly regarded.

He has no recall....we got him at 19mths, GSD and is a complete giant oaf of a thing and he simply cannot be allowed to go bowling up to other people/dogs
I do a lot of on lead walking and he has to sit and focus on me when we see anyone. He does walk beautifully on a loose lead though!

He's also a bit of a neurotic mess....so a year later we are still not much further forwards with recall tbh.

I like the sound of the Orientation Game though...I will look into that for him.