teaching recall without treats

[steppemum]

Bigfluffdog has just arrived at our house, had him for 4 days. A mixed breed, he looks and behaves like a golden retriever.
Big, soft, cuddly, friendly, and really wants to play with other dogs.
He is 18 months old, rehomed from a family who couldn't cope because he was too big, strong and bouncy.
He does have quite a bit of training, walks OK on a lead, knows sit, stay, on your bed, paw etc.

He has no recall. Talking to the previous owner (PO) he comes back when called if he wants to. If he sees another dog, he is REALLY keen to go and play and so runs off across the field, bounces round the other dog and plays. Very stubborn zero recall in this context. So PO would let him off in the field and he would run all over, up to other dogs, bouncy, big, loud and sometimes barking. Apparently some owners of smaller dogs were not very happy! (not shit Sherlock)

We have not let him off the lead, because to me, that is not acceptable (approaching other dogs) So we need to train him.

He is not food orientated at all. Happy for a treat, but really not that bothered. He like his toys, but not enough to use for recall. He isn't interested in a ball, squeaky or otherwise.

In the garden, if you call his name, he recognises it, and turns round. Then does a playbow and springs up and bounces all over the place, running away and back again. So knows his name, but really no idea about coming back.
He was very under-exercised. PO took him out 2-3 times a week for 45 minutes. He is now getting 1.5 hours in morning and 30 minutes in the evening. he has already massively calmed down, due to exercise.

Our old dog was very treat orientated and also really wanted to come to you , so training him, he would come to you because he was person orientated.

Just no idea where to start with training really with Bigdog.
He has no reason to come back! And the lure of other dogs is so huge.

Any ideas?

Oh thank you all so much, loads of brilliant advice here.

I totally agree with the idea that he has had so little playtime that that is the holy grail for him.

Since we have had him and he has been walked so much more, he is already calmer and more focussed that when we first met him.

We are not walking him off lead at all at the moment. The downside of that is that depsite the longer walks he doesn't get the running he used to, so trying to do that a bit in the garden. He also isn't getting the play run around with other dogs, because he isn't off lead.

When we met him with PO we all went on a walk so he could show us what he is like.
With PO he lunged and barked at other dogs. PO got stressed and voice got more stressed with him, he was lunging and twisting at the end of the lead, and the lead was a choke collar and as he lunged and twisted the choke tightened and he got more wound up and stressed and barked and lunged more.
But when he was off lead he was just a puppy, playbowing and bouncing and playing with other dogs.

We brought him home and swapped choke collar for a harness, and took him for a walk. Saw a dog coming and we moved away onto the grass, brought him close, held him by the harness against my leg and spoke to him in lovely-dovey reassuring voice. Result? no barking, aggression or lunging.

It hasn't gone entirely, as we meet quite a few dogs on our walks, and for each one we do sitting calmly as they walk by, but if I don't spot the dog in time he gets excited before I get a chance to sit him next to me. But the difference in just a few days is huge, so I have high hopes for training.

Every day he is more responsive to us as he settles.

I was making the play suggestions with some vague idea that playing was OK, it was just the way he's doing it at the moment.

But of course if that's not an aim, then keeping away from other dogs for the short/medium term whilst other things are worked on is of course going to be the better way round. Though that depends on how feasible it is to keep away from other dogs (which may well be easier than finding a suitable size/temperament playmate!)

Am reading with interest

I have a very large breed 1 year old pup who is not interested in food, and is too big and bouncy to let loose around small dogs (he sort of rolls them over and slaps them with his front paw... not a good look)

We managed to not only have no recall with him, we somehow engineered "reverse recall"... if he's playing with another dog or running off and we say his name + come he looks at us and quickly runs away. As experience has taught him that "come" really means an end to fun and being put on the lead...

So now we are trying "look what I got!" And it's either a squeaky toy which he loves and only gets on walks, or a fishy treat (a dried sprat ) and also he's not off lead that much now, and we if he comes when we call "look what I got!" He does never go straight back on the lead... as he figured that one out pdq

It's hard to get it right. Our first dog was same breed and we got good recall with her, but the same tactics don't work with dog 2

It does my head in a bit, but we're back to lead walks and square 1 and just keep trying.

Maybe one day...

Good luck!

A choke collar, oh poor boy, sounds like you are doing brilliantly with him.

My big fluffy puppy has no recall
We rescued him at 6 months untrained
We tried to teach him and he really got it at first and would come bounding back lovely and happy
Then somewhere around 9 months it's all gone to pot. He generally has much less interest in food and in us now and much more in the outside world especially other dogs.
He can do watch me and leave it and sit, lie, nose touch, stay etc at home or in the garden and we do this every day but out on a walk he will barely even check in with me
I never let him off anymore sadly as I know I have no control and he won't come back. I stick him on a long line in the park so he can doodle around a bit sniffing but he can't really full on sprint as he gets tangled up
His behaviour with other dogs on the lead is obnoxious too as he whines and barks and pulls to get to them and then wants to jump all over them. He did the paw on the back of a small dog recently. I usually let him have a 3 second sniff and move on quickly before the bouncing starts. Occasionally I do let him off to play with known dogs with the owner's consent in a safe place. I wish I could let him do that more as it seems like it's really the holy grail for him and makes him very happy. He plays nicely with dogs his own size. I looked into daycare or group dog walks as an outlet but he's not neutered so no-one will have him.
I try to practice recall with the long line out and about but it's an abject failure so far. Even sausage and chicken are not interesting to him and he never likes balls
I can have some limited success by running away from him and by playing tuggy but he'll only do it one or two times and then get bored and not come back again.
Our trainer just said it's normal for his age and to keep persisting and one day it will get better again
My (longwinded) point is that I think it's normal to have crap recall in adolescence and you are right not to let him off without it. As you keep working on it he will eventually calm down and listen more (or so I am told)

@wetotter

I was making the play suggestions with some vague idea that playing was OK, it was just the way he's doing it at the moment.

But of course if that's not an aim, then keeping away from other dogs for the short/medium term whilst other things are worked on is of course going to be the better way round. Though that depends on how feasible it is to keep away from other dogs (which may well be easier than finding a suitable size/temperament playmate!)

I think you are spot on actually. He wants to play, that is his primary objective. We have a few friends with dogs, one in particular, a black lab who knows me really well, and who I walk a lot (she was steppedogs best friend ) I have been working out how long we need to give it before I introduce them, because playing with her will get a lot of his need to play out. My biggest problem is where we do it, as I don't know of a safe dog field.

I had a been of a revelation moment this morning.
So, he wants to play. He sees another dog and he bounces towards them because he wants to play. With PO this had 2 results

1. bounce, hit end of the lead, get choked, frustrated and scared and wound up, start barking, quickly get upset and aggressive.
2. get let off lead and race at full pelt across the field and then run rings round other dogs until tired. No rules, no boundaries.

my revelation was that no-one has ever taught him how to approach another dog and say hello. Over the last few days we have met loads of dogs, partly because they all know me and want to ask who is fluffdog and where is steppedog?
Fluffdog has been sitting by me, calmly, me reassuring and keeping him undercontrol, not doing his bounce thing, and they stop to talk and their dog wanders over and fluffdog relaxes, and says hello, then I can relax the lead and he and new dog say hello really nicely. Then he playbows and I have to be careful he doesn't bounce on them, so we move off and he is happy dog.

So exciting to see him learning how to say hello properly. Daily progress is so rewarding!

NandorTheRelentlessCleaner
with our old dog, his recall was OK, but when we first got him, we worked hard to improve it.
I used to go on a walk, in safe fields, with him off the lead, and recall him every 10 paces, he comes back, loads of praise, and send him off again. Literally 100 times a walk I did recall. It also meant he was never too far away. But it took the whole thing about recall = going on the lead out of the equation.

I should say we are not getting it right every time, we still have a few bounce and lunge moments and my shoulder muscles and hands are really feeling it.
But very very little barking and no aggression.

@cheeseisthebest

A choke collar, oh poor boy, sounds like you are doing brilliantly with him.

yes, to see him twisting and lunging at the end of a lead with the choke collar on was not nice

It's something we really struggle with. Our rescue dog 99% of the time will not eat outside the house. When he was younger we had limited success with things like liver, but he quickly grew out of eating outside

Most trainers kept asking us to find high value food, do scatter games like suggested above, but it never worked as he won't eat them let alone sniff to find them

With a previous dog who was more playful, theyd come back for a game of tug, or to be fussed over. We've fostered for a long time, my partner used to work within a dog training facility and we've cracked a lot of recall issues on multiple dogs.

However our dog is more akin to a cat, and is mostly only playful at home (took years to understand a toy), he isn't motivated in that way and is just an independent old soul.

The other issue is we obviously don't know his breed make up but he is smell obsessed and gets the sort of deafness when he finds one that I've only seen in beagles! He's just a chronically disinterested and aloof dog, it means However he is fantastic at sharing his home with foster cats and dogs, happy to walk with sheep, cattle and horses.

Ultimately we've given up on recall in non secure environments as it just wasn't working, but we have certain walks where he is able to go off lead where we know it well enough

It sounds like you are right at the beginning though, and that your dog is showing interest and engaging with you so I think it will just be a process of discovering what his interests are. He might also be a dog where he has to be recalled early, and you have to interrupt their thought process before they are away!

He might also be a dog where he has to be recalled early, and you have to interrupt their thought process before they are away!

this really rang a bell! Yes I think so. But he is young, with not much training yet, so I have high hopes.

We had a great walk today, I was later than usual, met loads of dogs, and because I am a regular of course lots of people who I haven't met yet asking where steppedog was.
Fluffdog just walked with me, walked up to them and had a sniffy hello. Could. Not. Believe. It.
At one piont he saw a dog and half bounced, and then settled back to walking.

Interestingly he was rubbish on the way home, long walk, very tired, and I realised that all this well behaved walking is hard work, he is having to work at it, it goes against his instinct, so when he was tired, he couldn't keep it up.

He is really starting to respond to my voice and call too, coming back (on long lead) loads when I call him.

Very proud mum

Less proud of the stuff he has decided to adopt

I was out, dh was home, fluffdog knew dh was home, but there was no-one downstairs. So a whole ream of paper got trashed and dh's slippers.

We all went to bed, he sleeps on dd1s bed, she went to have a shower so he was ALONE. So he decided to eather glasses. That was really not a good moment.

really hoping this is left over puppy behaviour, as otherwise he is going to be expensive!
I think the next thread might be on how do we train him to be left alone happily.

I just wouldn’t let him off lead tbh.

Neither of mine go off lead.
The older one used to as she always had fantastic recall, still does but she’s old now, her sight isn’t as good and neither is her hearing so it’s no longer safe for her.

My younger one doesn’t go off lead because his recall is alright, but nowhere good enough for me to feel confident that he’d return in any situation.

Both the dogs are fine.

If your dog genuinely isn’t that interested in food or toys then frankly, without the aid of something very aversive like a shock collar or similar, which I’m pretty sure are illegal now anyway, I don’t see how you are going to train a good recall myself as how are you ever going to be more exciting than the other dogs?

Haven’t RTFT so apologies if I’m repeating PP.

Food orientation - hand feed all meals. Take 30 minutes out of his morning walk to train him instead with his breakfast. He eats when he’s rewarded for good behaviour. Don’t just do sit etc. use it for heel work in your house/garden etc. When he’s with you he’s getting praised and fed. We use a puppy treat pouch on our hip, this works best IMO, not going back to the bag all the time etc. the food comes from you, they are excited to be with you, fed by you, not getting excited over the cupboard the food is kept in. It also helps build a bond and doesn’t have to last forever.

Recall - Can you hire a field? Let her run, play and stretch her legs and the session call her back as and when for some of her food. I think the mistake a lot of owners make with puppies is repeating ‘X come’. The dog just listening when it pleases as it hears it all the time and just gets a lousy treat over fun with a friend. Training doesn’t have to be hard and fast, especially with a slightly older pup. And if they’re off and don’t ‘come’ when called in a hired field it’s not the end of the world and will stop you repeating it over and over again - which just loses value with the dog. When training if they don’t come, leave it a minute, try again. Also try not to use their name over and over. A simple ‘X COME’ loud and proud.

We also use a recall only treat, the best of the best in their eyes that they only get for coming back first call. Ours ranges with our dogs, one likes fish, one likes cheese and one will do anything for ham. All in the puppy treat pouch so they can smell it, you can give them one or two before you let them off lead for good behaviour. They know you have it then.

Good luck OP!

Also RE alone.

Try long lasting chews, doesn’t have to be food, olive wood, deer legs etc. pet shops or butchers normally pretty good.

@WetRainbowRoses

I just wouldn’t let him off lead tbh.

Neither of mine go off lead.
The older one used to as she always had fantastic recall, still does but she’s old now, her sight isn’t as good and neither is her hearing so it’s no longer safe for her.

My younger one doesn’t go off lead because his recall is alright, but nowhere good enough for me to feel confident that he’d return in any situation.

Both the dogs are fine.

If your dog genuinely isn’t that interested in food or toys then frankly, without the aid of something very aversive like a shock collar or similar, which I’m pretty sure are illegal now anyway, I don’t see how you are going to train a good recall myself as how are you ever going to be more exciting than the other dogs?

well, I agree, if your dog doesn't have recall, you shouldn't let them off.

But I love to watch dogs run. And both our old dog, and this dog love to run.

He can run a bit on a long lead, and he obviously wnats to run more.

So yes I will be finding a way to train him so he can be off lead, run and play with other dogs off leads.

But I love to watch dogs run. And both our old dog, and this dog love to run
He can run a bit on a long lead, and he obviously wants to run more
I get that, all I’m saying is recall is taught by essentially having something of better value than the dog/stranger/interesting smell/lake etc.

If your dog isn’t particularly motivated by food or toys then I personally don’t see how training a reliable recall is really possible as you don’t have anything to offer really so I would say keep him on lead.

Maybe you will find a way, I hope you do, he hasn’t been with you that long anyway so maybe he will turn out to be food or toy motivated in the end, who knows.

I’d just be prepared myself that it may not be possible, that’s all.

We always use the book total recall to train ours. It starts at home, so it's good for keeping their brain entertained and understand when to get their attention etc.

There's options for rewards. You don't have to just use treats.

Off lead fields are also good, especially if you can get friends with their own dogs, to help out.

“all I’m saying is recall is taught by essentially having something of better value than the dog/stranger/interesting smell/lake etc.”

It’s not... it’s trained by repetition when you’re not competing for the dog’s attention, until the recall is automatic.

I get that, all I’m saying is recall is taught by essentially having something of better value than the dog/stranger/interesting smell/lake etc.

If your dog isn’t particularly motivated by food or toys then I personally don’t see how training a reliable recall is really possible as you don’t have anything to offer really so I would say keep him on lead.

Ultimately, the dog comes back to you because you have taught it to come back.
It doesn't come back FOR the treat. You use the treat when training, because that is the easiest way to teach them, but at some point you don't need the treats any more, the dog comes because you have trained it to come every time when you call.

As a pp said near the beginning of this thread, it is like the Pavlovs dog reaction.
But the training process is a lot easier with treats

and I think dogs are designed to run, and when I see dogs that never run, because they are always on a lead, it makes me sad. I really hope those dogs get time in secure fields off lead to run around.

Even over the last few days we have seen his repsonse to our voices grow day by day, so I am hoping we can train him to come because he wants to please us, until that training is solid.

As I keep saying - early days, just looking for ideas!

and you train them away from distractions. So in Fluffdog's case we will do a lot of training in the garden before we step foot out of the gate.

@Lookingforphev

We always use the book total recall to train ours. It starts at home, so it's good for keeping their brain entertained and understand when to get their attention etc.

There's options for rewards. You don't have to just use treats.

Off lead fields are also good, especially if you can get friends with their own dogs, to help out.

Thanks, I'll have a look.

steppedog was so easy to train, we were a bit laid back. He also didn't ever approch dogs or people so when he didn't come back it was because he was under a bush smelling a fox, so it really didn't matter much.
Fluffdog is going to run towards dogs (not people thank goodness) so I need his recall to be really good. (and he is bloody huge, so looks scary when bounding towards you)

Ultimately, the dog comes back to you because you have taught it to come back.
It doesn't come back FOR the treat. You use the treat when training, because that is the easiest way to teach them, but at some point you don't need the treats any more, the dog comes because you have trained it to come every time when you call
It depends on the dog.
I am well aware of how to train a recall. I have two dogs, DH has had five before these two.
I know that you start without distractions in the house.
I also know that you start with treats or a toy as a lure.
And I am aware that in theory you phase out the lure/reward.
In practice, it depends very much on the individual dog.
There are many dogs that will not return from another dog (as an example) because whatever reward the owner is offering does not trump the reward of interacting with the other dog.
Not all dogs will come back reliably without the reward so no you can’t just ‘phase out’ the reward for all dogs.
And whatever you are offering, some dogs still will not return because the treat/toy isn’t ‘good enough’.
If you haven’t got a treat or toy your only motivators really are praise/fuss or using interaction with the other dog as a reward for returning.
Whichever way you look at it, training recall without the aid of treats or toys is going to be very, very difficult.

I have never used treats to train recall, but I have always had more than one dog, so when a new dog comes long they seem to follow the other dog and learn that way.

Have you thought about perhaps going out for walks with a friend whose dog behaves well?

We have a very non food oriented dog too. She learnt via hand signals and by playing fun mind games (she is a collie). We trained her through the clever mind games by teaching commands as she played which worked really well. We then practiced recall in the garden using a similar tone of voice and lots of hand signals. Starting with basic training was key though so even if your ddog is already trained otherwise, maybe get him used to how your voice sounds when you say them, and incorporate hand signals. Our girl is fab off the lead nowadays. Good luck!