Soiling in crate

[Cappucinoextrachocolate]

I am at my wits' end. My 4 months old (17 weeks) Miniature Schnauzer has started to soil his crate. We have him from 11 weeks and he is still housetraining. While very full on during the day, we were counting our lucky stars as he took to his crate straight away and was dry during the night, going through from about 10.30pm to 6am when I was taking him in the garden.
About 2 weeks ago I woke up to find poo in his crate. This continued on and off every night. I put a partition in his crate so he only has space for his bed. I went to him at 5am this morning and he had soiled his crate again, and was lying in it. It was all over his bed and his fur. No loose stool but obviously squished ( sorry, TMI). I gave him a shower which he hates.
Generally, everything is a struggle with him. I love him but I don't enjoy him at the moment as nothing is easy: washing, brushing, house training. He wriggles a lot and he started growling and nipping my hands whenever I have to do something he doesn't like (taking him out of the car, in the garden sometimes, wiping his paws when we come from a walk, etc. ) He is walked twice a day, I socialize him, he is not neglected but things like grooming him are non negotiable and they are a source of stress for both of us. Now this soiling issue, I can't help thinking we bought a perfect puppy and turned him into a stressed one. The thought of waking up at 3am to take a sleepy pup out of his crate is filling me with despair because as I said he gets very nippy and growly. He is a very deep sleeper and I'm wondering if this is part of the problem? Help!

Move his meal times, and make the last toilet trip later, give him plenty of time to poop

I’d suggest more meals at his age. Smaller and later. Sounds like he’s going almost 12 hours with no food if his last meal is 5pm too

You need to make sure you can hear him as soon as he wakes up
Hes not pooping in his sleep, he’s getting up, so you need to catch that moment.

Also work on crate training, make it more homey for him, make sure he’s eating and getting treats in there so he’s more reluctant to poop in there

But if he’s got to go he’s got to go and you’re not giving him any choice of anywhere else
I’m sure he doesn’t want to sleep in his own filth then have to have a shower

Re him being a nightmare - this is normal at this stage! They aren’t very rewarding, it’ll get better

@MrsSkylerWhite

If taking him out every 30 mins, and now every hour or 2 during the day, ever since we got him, counts as not putting effort in, then I don't know what does“

It’s at night you’re having the problem though, is that correct?

You need to be taking him outside at night, too.

The first weeks after I got him, he slept through from 10.30pm until 6am. Not anymore. I was really surprised but I let him get on with it. Now it's not working anymore. I do understand I have to wake in the night. I was just asking here if there is anything else I can do in addition to that. For the last time, I am not letting him lie in his shit! I accept I worded my initial OP poorly, but I genuinely want to do the right thing. I am not keeping him crated during the day, I am taking him on walks, he is socialised. I am not cruel, or emotionally stupid, or lazy. If using a crate at night only, which he goes in himself, makes me a monster, then I guess I am one.

@Nogardenersworld

Move his meal times, and make the last toilet trip later, give him plenty of time to poop

I’d suggest more meals at his age. Smaller and later. Sounds like he’s going almost 12 hours with no food if his last meal is 5pm too

You need to make sure you can hear him as soon as he wakes up
Hes not pooping in his sleep, he’s getting up, so you need to catch that moment.

Also work on crate training, make it more homey for him, make sure he’s eating and getting treats in there so he’s more reluctant to poop in there

But if he’s got to go he’s got to go and you’re not giving him any choice of anywhere else
I’m sure he doesn’t want to sleep in his own filth then have to have a shower

Re him being a nightmare - this is normal at this stage! They aren’t very rewarding, it’ll get better

Thank you, I agree and will try to catch this. He is taking his Kong to his crate in the day. He doesn't eat more and his crate is cozy, he has a comfortable dog bed and he goes in it himself. But yes, I will take him out at night every night for a few weeks/months.

I'm sorry you've received some pretty unpleasant answers OP Pay them no mind - young puppies are hard work and can be really stressful. It's not always easy to see the wood from the trees when you're sleep deprived and overwhelmed :)

If it makes you feel any better, what you're experiencing sounds relatively normal to me! It will get better but those puppy/teenage months are bloody tough.

It's relatively common for dogs sleep routines to change as they grow - our beagle didn't sleep reliably through the night until he was about 6-7 months old. Up until that point, he still asked to be let out probably twice a week on average.

You don't need to wake him up - you just need a system in place where he can either wake you up himself - so either have the crate in your room so you hear him when he wakes up, or have a doggy cam set up downstairs so an alarm goes off when he starts to stir. Ours slept in our room and tapped on the door when he needed out (he never once toileted inside overnight) but I know that's not for everyone.

Re. the nipping. It's normal but it's happening because your dog is trying to tell you he's uncomfortable. Lifting is not a natural behaviour for dogs and they don't tend to like it much. It's easy with small dogs to get into the habit of lifting them but I always say to owners - what would you do if you had a St. Bernard and couldn't physically lift him?

Use a lead and treats to entice him. We used the command "off" - a light tug on the lead and treats to entice him down from where he was. As soon as he had all four paws on the floor, he got a treat and lots of praise. Soon, you can get rid of the lead and treats and just use the command and lots of praise.

Lots of positive association for grooming and touching feet/paws. Start slowly, just touching one paw, and treat. Build up to touching all four paws, then you can move on to drying the paws and between the toes. I would put a towel down on the floor and encourage him to walk over that while you work on the positive association too, and if his feet are still mucky, just keep him in the kitchen for a while until he dries off :)

Has he been to a groomers for an puppy grooming session at all? If not, I would highly, HIGHLY recommend it. Good luck!

We had a crate / cage for night time (and occasional day time naps) as pup was too small to climb on / off our high bed and navigate the stairs etc, but we had it in the bedroom so we could hear / react as soon as she stirred. Is that an option OP?

You’re far far from a monster!!
Puppies are though!
Another plug for the FB group dog training advice and support. Files and free advice from actual dog behaviour specialists. All positive and force free. Saved (what little was left of) my sanity with my first!!

@Cappucinoextrachocolate do you mean he won’t eat more food? You need to give the same amount of food but over 3 or 4 meals.

As long as the habit doesn’t develop, eventually he’ll be able to hold it all night too so this won’t be a problem anymore soon.
It’s so difficult at this stage

Positive reinforcement on everything though, he’s basically a toddler who’s just learned the word ‘no’
You’ll get through it!

I had the dogs upstairs in my bed as soon as they came home, they slept through the night from the very first night. No accidents.

I really feel for you. We have a little mini schnauzer, 9 months old and a work in progress!
You have been given so much advice that your head must be spinning. Lots of different breeds, experiences and attitudes.Things will improve, his bowel and bladder will grow and this will all be a distant memory. Our little girl was a bit tricky but is fine now. We fed her 3 times a day, last feed at 6. Watched her like a hawk, if she sniffed the ground intently, after feeding and a drink. I stood with her in the garden until she produced, made a huge fuss and gave her a treat. Straight back indoors so she associated garden with toileting.
We have her crate downstairs at the bottom of the stairs. If I heard her stirring in the night I shoved on wellies and coat, torch in hand and took her into garden.
Have you joined the schnauzer Facebook page? Its full of people with mini schnauzers who are always happy to share information.
Good luck xx

For all the eejits saying crate training is cruel etc. ignore them. Crate training works. There's no alternative when they're puppies but getting up several times during the night to let them out to toilet. Your wee man will get the hang of it eventually. Puppies are hard work but they're not puppies for long. Good luck!

Thank you everyone for the very kind advice. I posted this morning after very little sleep, very upset at the night time incident and I might not have found the best words. He didn't spend 2 weeks in a crate soiling himself. He used to sleep through, not anymore. In these 2 weeks I woke up earlier every time and it seemed to be ok every few nights then he was soiling again so I was waking up earlier and it was ok for a bit and the cycle was repeating itself. This morning was the first time I found him like this so I had to give him a shower and change his bed. I don't want a repeat so I asked here for suggestions. I take the point about no crate or open crate or pen. Also maybe I was going too fast with the paw wiping. I don't want to distress him. I am making mistakes. But to be accused of cruelty and insensitivity and to be told I need to re-home knocked me to be honest. He is a much loved puppy albeit not always enjoyable at the moment and I wad quite upset and sleep deprived to put my thick skin on. It was an accident and one I hope not to repeat.

I will be able to have him in my bedroom in a few days, then again I would have to lift him to take him outside. But I'll see how it goes.

He went for a puppy groom, the groomer also commented on how wriggly he was. He had extra treats. I will try to keep lifting to a minimum but I can't always avoid it as he can't get in and out of the car or stairs. These episodes of growling and nipping my hand started around the same time as sleeping through the night stopped.

To answer a PP, I split the amount of food into 3 but he doesn't always want to eat. He is gaining weight though and had a clean bill of health from the vet.

When our oldest dog was tiny her crate was beside the bed, I mean right beside. That way as soon as she started to snuffle and sound anxious, one of us could jump out of bed and take her downstairs. She doesn't sleep in a crate now and is nicely trained. (Took a while though - she's a Shih Tzu and they're notoriously slow learners).

I've spent many an hour tramping around a garden in the middle of the night encouraging a dog to pee or poo. Dog would wake up and need a wee, I'd go out with them and they'd want to have a good sniff round the garden choosing the perfect place. And if you don't go with them then all they think about is getting back into the house and they don't pee at all.

These episodes of growling and nipping my hand started around the same time as sleeping through the night stopped.

That's interesting - if you think back, did his daytime routine change at all at that time? Is he getting a suitable amount of sleep, quiet time, exercise and mental stimulation?

If he were mine I would just keep at the training. He is young still. He will start to bark to let you know he needs to go out if he is allowed to live outside of the cage. He's probably chewing the puppy pads as he's teething - I'm sure he has toys but does he have any specifically designed to be chewed?

What and when are you feeding him? Our dog is very high energy (Border Collie) and can get hyper at times. We use grain free dog food which mirrors what a dog would eat in the wild (Wolf of Wilderness) this seems to keep him calmer. If you're feeding twice a day can you give his main meal in the morning followed by a smaller meal later on?

I hope things improve for you... I feel sure they will, it just takes time.

He is fed Butchers Puppy Perfect, also grain free. It's 3 times, not 2 times a day, sorry I quoted the wrong post, although he doesn't eat too much in the mornings.

He is outside of the crate almost all day, when he goes in during the day the door is open. I think our whole routine changed because of the holidays, that would make sense. My son is usually at school, now he is at home all day. I can't think of anything else. He does behave like a toddler, it reminds me of my son when he wanted to do things he couldn't physically do.

I'll think back a bit more. It doesn't help that it's cold outside so he must hate doing his business outside in this weather!

I think our whole routine changed because of the holidays, that would make sense. My son is usually at school, now he is at home all day. I can't think of anything else. He does behave like a toddler, it reminds me of my son when he wanted to do things he couldn't physically do.

Have you considered the possibility that he's started to get very over-stimulated? His routine has gone out of the window and he now has a little playmate at home to get wound up by

That's not to say it's your sons fault at all, but children and puppies often play very energetically together when in fact puppies often need the opposite - calm training and low-level play. How old is your son? Is he old enough to engage in some (supervised) training with the puppy? He could try teaching some fun tricks like spin, paw or high five. It will tire the pup out mentally and strengthen their bond - just make sure you're around so that if the pup gets overstimulated, you can stop the session and put pup down for a nap.

I would also say at that age, they still need a good chunk of sleep each day - around 18 hours is a good guideline for puppies of that age. So a good 8-10 hours at night, and another 8-10 hours through the day.

For all the eejits saying crate training is cruel etc. ignore them. Crate training works. There's no alternative when they're puppies but getting up several times during the night to let them out to toilet

The fact that something "works" does not make it a good thing! Choke collars "work", a threat of violence "works".

Getting up several times a night with a puppy? That's what I have done. What's wrong with that?!

@Medievalist I don’t think anyone is saying if you crate your dog you don’t get up on the night

I get up whenever dpup asks, but for her safety (stairs/cat/chewing the house up!) she is crated at night

Just a thought one of ours struggles to hold her poo at night when her anal glands need emptying. We had a long stretch of diet watching and worming and couldnt get to the cause of it. I just asked the vet to check her anal glands when we took our other dog for hers doing and that was the problen stopped overnight. She was probably about the same age.

Mine were on 4 meals a day at that age. Little and often.

www.allaboutdogfood.co.uk is a great site for dog food advice, Butchers is very budget end and may not be suiting their stomach. It's unusual for a puppy to come from a breeder on this.

I have found Facebook to be invaluable for advice with my dogs, find a breed specific group. It's saved my sanity a time or two with mine.

Ignore the nasty responses, some people on this site are ridiculous. You are clearly doing your best and are asking for help. As other people have said, just try and make sure you can hear when he wakes up at night so you can take him outside on a lead and then back to bed. Having him outside your bedroom will be very helpful.

It will get better!

I'd have a look at his diet... there is far better out there than Butchers and if he needs to poo in the night, it's probably not the ideal food for him!
We had to trial a few foods before we found one that really suited our pup.(Raw is best for minimal poos but tbh my dog didn;' like it!) but try a few different foods ..you can often get samples for free.
I'm not a fan of caging puppies at night.. they are babies. We had a dog bed next to ours so we could hear her if she stirred, and it made life a LOT easier... never had a poo in the house.
As the rest...slow down! Don't pick him up... most dogs don't like that! Every bit of training needs a positive association! Go to a decent shop and get THE best treats ever (I can reccommend WOOLF soft duck, or Perrito duck treats) and go slow. Touch a toe? Treat. Show him a brush without using it..treat! Get near the car..treat... etc etc. Tiny steps!
Training a dog is a long process and rushing stuff doesn't help . I have quite a tricky dog who dislikes strangers or strange dogs and screams if she as much as sees nail clippers and I have had to work slowly with her, and I've had her since she was 9 weeks old. Now nearly 3 I still use high value treats for any behaviour I want to enforce..grooming, looking for grass seeds between toes etc.
Cheese tends to be a great motivator here :)

I thought I'd come here and give everyone who helped me an update. Last night I slept (dozed) on the sofa downstairs while he slept in his dog bed next to the sofa. He stirred a couple of times but was fast asleep in a minute and didn't want to come out of his bed. He woke up just before 7.30am this morning, still barely wanted to come outside though. If it all goes well and he sleeps like this I'll take him in my bedroom in a few days' time. I don't want to leave him unrestrained at night without me near.

I thought back a bit more and I think his change of behaviour goes back to the middle of December, when he finished a course of ear drops for an infection. Unfortunately he hated it but DH and I had to keep him still and do it as it just had to be done. I hated it as well. Things he accepted before are now even more of a struggle and I'll try to remember that what worked before doesn't work now.

Anyway, it all seems easier when I'm not so sleep deprived and we'll find our way. Several people asked about food. I chose Butchers because it has natural ingredients and it is not so processed, and also because it doesn't contain peas. My son is severely allergic to peas (Epipens) and potentially allergic to flaxseed (both very common in dog food) so I didn't want them in the house because Dpup is licking everything and everyone at the moment. The same with treats, a lot have pea protein or pea fibre and my son is touching them when trying to teach dpup a new trick. It seems to agree with him (dpup not DS), his poop is hard and well formed and his coat shiny.

Anyway, thank you to everyone who replied and gave me good advice, I appreciate it.

That’s a great update. The early months are hard work and tiring. Wishing you more sleep and less biting soon!!

That's an excellent update OP.

As an aside, Butchers really isn't bad at all as far as dog foods go - and it agrees with your dog so that's the important part! I think there are some misconceptions around it but it rates well and has a good meat content.