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Original poster

Soiling in crate

79 replies

Cappucinoextrachocolate · 30/12/2021 08:45

I am at my wits' end. My 4 months old (17 weeks) Miniature Schnauzer has started to soil his crate. We have him from 11 weeks and he is still housetraining. While very full on during the day, we were counting our lucky stars as he took to his crate straight away and was dry during the night, going through from about 10.30pm to 6am when I was taking him in the garden.
About 2 weeks ago I woke up to find poo in his crate. This continued on and off every night. I put a partition in his crate so he only has space for his bed. I went to him at 5am this morning and he had soiled his crate again, and was lying in it. It was all over his bed and his fur. No loose stool but obviously squished ( sorry, TMI). I gave him a shower which he hates.
Generally, everything is a struggle with him. I love him but I don't enjoy him at the moment as nothing is easy: washing, brushing, house training. He wriggles a lot and he started growling and nipping my hands whenever I have to do something he doesn't like (taking him out of the car, in the garden sometimes, wiping his paws when we come from a walk, etc. ) He is walked twice a day, I socialize him, he is not neglected but things like grooming him are non negotiable and they are a source of stress for both of us. Now this soiling issue, I can't help thinking we bought a perfect puppy and turned him into a stressed one. The thought of waking up at 3am to take a sleepy pup out of his crate is filling me with despair because as I said he gets very nippy and growly. He is a very deep sleeper and I'm wondering if this is part of the problem? Help!

OP posts:
Original poster
Cappucinoextrachocolate · 30/12/2021 09:49

@PollyRoulllson

Two Options re soiling in crate.
  1. Get up in the night to let him out. A camera may help you work out what time his is soiling and then make sure you get him out before then
  1. Set up his crate in a pen and leave the crate door open. He can then get out of the crate to poo and you then clean that up in the morning. Hopefully he then goes back into his crate to sleep and not roll in the poo.

Has the time of his feeding changed or the quantity of food he has changed to encourage this extra poo? Or you habits changed over the holiday period may have upset him a bit. Hopefully he will soon go back to normal and no night time pooing.

Re biting and niping puppies do this a lot and it hurts! The more bitey they get the more sleep they need.

Go slowly with the handling of him for the time being - so hopefully if he does not roll in poo anymore you can just do one brush stroke and reward him.

Re wet feet coming initially I would get him to walk over a towel a few times and then build up to handling his fett. Eg lift his feet touch one foot and reward. DO not try to do all feet to start with as this could become a big issue.

If you are lifting up a puppy give them warning. so say "lifting" treat and pick them up. If you just pick them up without warning they can get worrried and stressed.

If you are taking him somewhere eg outside or to the car best to use a lead and then he can not bite your hands etc but do not force him let him "think" he is making the choice to do these things.

Thank you. I give treats when wiping his paws but I wasn't giving any when lifting, I'll try it. It is getting him in and out of the car seat which seems to become problematic, I have treats on me to reward him but it's lifting he doesn't like especially when he has to come out.
OP posts:
Wolfiefan · 30/12/2021 09:51

At this age I wouldn’t be feeding just twice a day.
Avoid lifting where possible. Use a ramp or steps. Don’t wipe paws use towel.
I remember this age. It’s bloody (literally with the biting!) hard work!!

Original poster
Cappucinoextrachocolate · 30/12/2021 09:52

This doesn't make much sense. Lifting when waking up, I wasn't giving treats and I'll try it. Lifting when having to come out of the car, I am. Brain fried

OP posts:
Original poster
Cappucinoextrachocolate · 30/12/2021 10:00

[quote OldWivesTale]@baystard I am far from perfect but I'm not cruel to animals. I am tired of the way cages have become normalised and most people have no idea how to use them. In the right hands, with emotionally intelligent owners, they can just about be OK - but locking a puppy I'm a cage and making it sleep I'm its own shit is just cruel. How can anyone not know that?[/quote]
FFS, I am NOT making him sleep in his own shit, I am here to ask if there is any suggestion anyone has in addition to me waking up in the night, not instead of. Of course I will. He recently started to soil his crate, I started to wake up earlier, it worked for a few nights, it doesn't anymore.
I am worried and yes, I will take him out in the night. I am not cruel and thank you for your assessment of lacking emotional intelligence. And I will continue to use the crate while also taking him out at night as he chooses to go in it during the day, is not distressed or coerced.

OP posts:
ThesecondLEM · 30/12/2021 10:01

He likes his crate but clearly does not like being locked in it overnight. Leave it open and hopefully the problem will resolve

Justcannotbearsed · 30/12/2021 10:02

yeah, they don’t like lifting. We used treats thrown in the direction to go and a cheery let’s go. She knows ‘let’s go’ now. Unfortunately dh continues to use treats so she won’t get in the car with him unless he gives her a treat…

We never used a car seat…had a harness the clipped in when she was little, now she just just gets in the boot and curls up.

I think hold on to the fact that this just is another stage, he’s still tiny really and his digestive system is growing and changing. Ours slept through the night from about 5 months but every so often would still wake us up to be let outside. We did drop the crate at night .

MrsSkylerWhite · 30/12/2021 10:04

He’s a baby and you’re leaving him too long at night. You need to set an alarm and take him outside.

Nipping is perfectly normal, puppies do it with their litter mates. Mum usually teaches them it’s not on by nipping them.
He needs puppy classes and it will stop in time.

MrsSkylerWhite · 30/12/2021 10:06

“And I will continue to use the crate while also taking him out at night as he chooses to go in it during the day, is not distressed or coerced.”

Please leave the door open so he can come and go at will.

Original poster
Cappucinoextrachocolate · 30/12/2021 10:06

I meant to quote the message saying he is fed at 8am, 12 and 5pm.
If I don't use the crate at night, he has access to the whole downstairs due to the layout of the house, everything I read says to restrict their access while they are still potty training, but I think I'll bite the bullet tonight and see how it goes.

OP posts:
Wolfiefan · 30/12/2021 10:08

We use a pen rather than a crate. I wouldn’t leave an un toilet trained little pup to destroy the house while you sleep! Shock

Squills · 30/12/2021 10:13

Stop putting your dog in a cage.

Are you waking the poor animal up and taking him into the garden? If you are, then stop that too. He won’t have any idea why you’re waking him.

He’s very young and you will have accidents but dogs are clean animals and only soil in the way you describe when left with no other option.

My advice to you would be to Get rid of the cage, buy him a proper dog bed and put it somewhere he’ll feel safe and get some puppy pads. That way he can bark at the door to be let out and in case he doesn’t manage to alert you he can use the pad. If you use a pad to blot a bit of his wee he’ll be able to smell it and will use the pad.

What you have done is unacceptable… leaving the puppy with no alternative other than to lie in his own faeces is cruel.

Original poster
Cappucinoextrachocolate · 30/12/2021 10:19

[quote OldWivesTale]@baystard I am far from perfect but I'm not cruel to animals. I am tired of the way cages have become normalised and most people have no idea how to use them. In the right hands, with emotionally intelligent owners, they can just about be OK - but locking a puppy I'm a cage and making it sleep I'm its own shit is just cruel. How can anyone not know that?[/quote]
Fair enough OldWivesTail, I reread my OP and it does read like I let him soil for 2 weeks which is not what I meant. My very tired brain this morning didn't make this very clear. I meant he started 2 weeks ago, it seemed to have been a one off until a few days ago, I started waking up at 5am to take him out, it seemed to work until yesterday, then today when I went down he had soiled already. So clearly it's not working anymore and I will take him out at night - just dreading it because he hates it and lets me know it!
This coincided with the growling and nipping when he doesn't like something ( he nips anyway but this is different) and I wondered if the 2 are connected. He is not neglected in any way, and no I don't usually wash him at night, but I had to last night. I love him very much, it's this stage I don't find enjoyable as it's such hard work for everything. I am gentle with him, not cruel.

OP posts:
Medievalist · 30/12/2021 10:21

Poor dog locked in a cage in it's own shit. If that's not an argument against dog cages, I don't know what is.

FindingMeno · 30/12/2021 10:21

The problem is the crate not the puppy.

Wolfiefan · 30/12/2021 10:22

Try and stop doing things he doesn’t like wherever possible. I still use treats to get mine in from the garden and she is two! It’s easier and nicer all round to throw her a treat where I want her to go than try and wrestle her in or keep her on a lead if I don’t have to!!!!

FindingMeno · 30/12/2021 10:22

He's a baby. He can wake you in the night if he needs a poo if he's not shut away.

Wolfiefan · 30/12/2021 10:23

X post. Crates aren’t a problem used properly. The trouble is a puppy that can’t hold it overnight. I would rather leave a puppy to sleep safely in a crate than have it chew through wires etc. But you need to train it as a safe space.

Original poster
Cappucinoextrachocolate · 30/12/2021 10:28

@Squills

Stop putting your dog in a cage.

Are you waking the poor animal up and taking him into the garden? If you are, then stop that too. He won’t have any idea why you’re waking him.

He’s very young and you will have accidents but dogs are clean animals and only soil in the way you describe when left with no other option.

My advice to you would be to Get rid of the cage, buy him a proper dog bed and put it somewhere he’ll feel safe and get some puppy pads. That way he can bark at the door to be let out and in case he doesn’t manage to alert you he can use the pad. If you use a pad to blot a bit of his wee he’ll be able to smell it and will use the pad.

What you have done is unacceptable… leaving the puppy with no alternative other than to lie in his own faeces is cruel.

Squills, I responded below that I reread my OP and didn't word it properly, he did not lie in his faeces for 2 weeks.

2 questions really.

  1. he doesn't bark at the door to let me know he wants out, just goes on the floor.

  2. he refuses to use puppy pads, dirty or not he just chews them

What would you do? Not a goady question, a genuine one.

Point taken about the crate. He has a very comfortable dog bed.

I have the feeling, after my initial OP, that I come across as a monster. I am not and I want to do right by him. Very hard to word this when you are so tired.

OP posts:
Medievalist · 30/12/2021 10:30

Crates aren’t a problem used properly.

But the problem is they so often AREN'T used properly - as evidenced by the op!

They encourage lazy ownership. And in far too many cases outright cruelty.

I hate the euphemism 'crate'. I wish people would at least have to guts to call it what it is - a cage.

Shouldofgotahamster85 · 30/12/2021 10:32

@Cappucinoextrachocolate some of the responses you are getting are unnecessary

I use a cage crate, our dpup loves it! Sleeps in it during the day. Can’t imagine the carnage if she had free rein as our house is fairly puppy proof but I’d worry she’d find something. Have you tried a camera? Our dpup was waking up at 330 and we realised dcat was popping in to say hi Grin so we blocked cat off and no issues since

Also with biting it’s so hard! We redirect to chews (yak bars, antler, olive branch etc and praise for using) also if she hasn’t had enough sleep she turns into a land shark so sometimes we also have enforced naps during the day when we pop her in the cage crate and she settles straight to sleep and that helps

I know crate training isn’t for everyone but it works for us, it is massive one with lots of space and cosy bedding and bits. She certainly seems happy.

PollyRoulllson · 30/12/2021 10:35

You don't come across as a monster.

Many in the doghouse go bonkers at the word crate. Good job you dont have a cockerpoo in a crate tbh the thread would have exploded Smile

Puppies are hard work and some harder than others. It does take time to work out what your individual puppy needs and you in rl can see the whole issues.

It does sound like your little guy is a bit stressed (nothing you have done just the way he is at the moment) so generally slow and calm will be the way forward. If some issues can be left eg wiping feet but keep him in one room until dry etc until you have time to condition him to feet wiping etc.

Re nipping when taking him out, does he do this on the lead? or when you put the lead on him?

This will pass I promise you hang on in there!

MrsSkylerWhite · 30/12/2021 10:38

2 questions really.

  1. he doesn't bark at the door to let me know he wants out, just goes on the floor.

  2. he refuses to use puppy pads, dirty or not he just chews them

What would you do? Not a goady question, a genuine one“

Seems he hasn’t yet learned to associate the front door/going outside with toileting, probably because he’s in his cage/crate for so long. I’m afraid it sounds that you just haven’t put in the work.

I had to take our pup out literally every half hour during the day and every couple overnight for a solid three weeks or so before she got the message and went to the door to indicate to us. Once learned, though, it’s ingrained.

Dogs feel shame and once they’re trained, they hate soiling indoors.

Original poster
Cappucinoextrachocolate · 30/12/2021 10:43

@MrsSkylerWhite

2 questions really.

  1. he doesn't bark at the door to let me know he wants out, just goes on the floor.

  2. he refuses to use puppy pads, dirty or not he just chews them

What would you do? Not a goady question, a genuine one“

Seems he hasn’t yet learned to associate the front door/going outside with toileting, probably because he’s in his cage/crate for so long. I’m afraid it sounds that you just haven’t put in the work.

I had to take our pup out literally every half hour during the day and every couple overnight for a solid three weeks or so before she got the message and went to the door to indicate to us. Once learned, though, it’s ingrained.

Dogs feel shame and once they’re trained, they hate soiling indoors.

He is in his crate just at night. Not sure this counts as too long? He goes in it himself!

If taking him out every 30 mins, and now every hour or 2 during the day, ever since we got him, counts as not putting effort in, then I don't know what does.

OP posts:
MrsSkylerWhite · 30/12/2021 10:45

If taking him out every 30 mins, and now every hour or 2 during the day, ever since we got him, counts as not putting effort in, then I don't know what does“

It’s at night you’re having the problem though, is that correct?

You need to be taking him outside at night, too.

Original poster
Cappucinoextrachocolate · 30/12/2021 10:46

@PollyRoulllson

You don't come across as a monster.

Many in the doghouse go bonkers at the word crate. Good job you dont have a cockerpoo in a crate tbh the thread would have exploded Smile

Puppies are hard work and some harder than others. It does take time to work out what your individual puppy needs and you in rl can see the whole issues.

It does sound like your little guy is a bit stressed (nothing you have done just the way he is at the moment) so generally slow and calm will be the way forward. If some issues can be left eg wiping feet but keep him in one room until dry etc until you have time to condition him to feet wiping etc.

Re nipping when taking him out, does he do this on the lead? or when you put the lead on him?

This will pass I promise you hang on in there!

Thank you. I'll continue with the cuddles and hang in there
OP posts:
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