Growling pup - should I be worried?

[3AndADog]

Cockerpoo pup is 6 months old. Lovely cuddly mad thing. Lots of Typical annoying puppy behaviour but we’re doing lots of training and seem to be getting there. Mouthing drives me up the wall.
This evening DH was sat with her on the sofa curled up and stroking her. I came and joined them (she’s hyper attached to me) and started stroking her too. She was mouthing me and trying to get me to play, but DH was withdrawing his hand and attention to get her to stop. As was I. She growled at us, twice - her body remained relaxed and she didn’t jump up or anything - it was a short quiet growl but we did see her teeth. I wondered if she was angry at SH for interfering with me and her, as I said she’s super attached to me and I’m worried she might be getting possessive - although this is the first time I’ve seen her growl in this situation. DH thinks she was growling for more strokes a give me more affection.

Should I be concerned about this? I can’t help panicking that it was a first sign of aggression. First time dog owner here.

Thanks

Ime removing her from the place YOU want to be is a must. Ddog bed for now.
Until it gets better manners...

Some dogs, mine included, will growl at me for attention, we can have quite a conversation.

It will have a very different tone to a warning growl. Cockerpoos can be highly strung and snappy in my experience so this is something to keep an eye on. However I would probably not be overly concerned at this stage.

Mouthing is to be discouraged as an unwanted behaviour and should equal end of fun and fuss. It can be associated with a firm no, don't shout, and you walking away and refusing to interact. It is however very normal behaviour that your dog should grow out of.

Don’t play with a dog’s mouth. I paid a trainer £100 for that advice! Just say a firm
‘NO’ and place the puppy on the floor. A puppy will push boundaries etc it’s up to you to tell the puppy what behaviour you expect. Treat for good behaviour, nothing for bad behaviour, including attention.

Yes, we do do all that, usually I would put her on the floor but this time we just tried a sharp ‘uh uh’ and DH immediately withdrew his hands and stopped stroking her. The growl really took me by surprise.

Mouthing - I am trying to get on top of it but because if never hurts sometimes I just can’t be bothered, tonight I just wanted to curl up with them on the sofa and have a snuggle. I know that sounds super lazy. I guess I just wanted reassurance that a ‘stroke me, play with me’ growl is nothing to worry about?

As for pp who said they can be highly strung, this is something I’ve been really worried about with her. She is developing separation anxiety I think and does bark a lot more than I’d like tbh. Also working on that!

Thanks for the replies

It's hard to know from a brief description of events and not much of her body language but I'd be leaning towards a play growl, rather than an actual growl.
Dominance and pack theory is completely outdated. Force will only create fear or resistance. The use of a puppy line or house line (basically a very light longish lead without a handle) can help to move her off the sofa, if that is what you want. But honestly I've never bothered with that conflict myself. I teach my dogs to get on and off on a command and use treats and praise.
As for the growling, if its not a play growl, or if its used in other situations then respect the growl. A growl is the dog asking for you to stop. It is them withdrawing consent for whatever you're doing. If you punish a growl then the dog won't growl, it's only two options are to put up with what it doesn't like or to bite... You can work with your dog to change how it feels about the thing it's growling about, using positive methods and baby steps.

What was her body language like before she growled at you?

To get on top of mouthing as a behaviour you do have to be really persistent. My dog hasn't mouthed me since he was about six or seven months but he still does it with DH because it always ends in play or attention

Dog is four now and DH should know better!

Keep her off the sofa
My DDog was always a complete arse when he was allowed on the sofa

Body language was very relaxed. She was sprawled across DH with her head on his lap. Apparently she had been a bit zooms before I came in but they had just settled. I sat next to them and she tried mouthing my hands, we both pulled hands away and then she growled, without moving her body/changing her body language at all, but as I said she did look up and we definitely saw her teeth as she did it.

dog = floor not sofa

Be very careful, cockers/cockerpoos can be really snappy SOME.

nip this in the bud now

@GettingItOutThere

dog = floor not sofa

Be very careful, cockers/cockerpoos can be really snappy SOME.

nip this in the bud now

Ok, but how? I know what I should be doing about the mouthing, and I ignore the barking for attention and praise when quiet, but the growling? How do I ‘nip it in the bud’?

Hmm, do you think she was maybe telling you to go away?

As in, she was nice and comfy and relaxed with DH and so she didn't want you sitting near them and potentially moving her?

A play growl is very different from a warning growl - but it's hard to say which one this was without seeing it in person.

It is, however, very very important to never punish a dog for growling as it's a great warning sign. If you tell them off for it, all they'll do next time is escalate straight to a snap and/or a bite.

I don't let my dog on furniture and I don't go to him to stroke him like someone paying homage to the emperor. I ask him for something - a sit, a toy, a trick - for everything. Strokes and cuddles and treats, even dinner and car rides are all earned. He adores us, has a brilliant life and is very humble (in an entirely good way). I could leave a steak on the floor and he wouldn't touch it (although he would do certainly alert me to the fact that it was there!). I only have to tell him anything once.
I know pack theory is discredited but I think your dog thinks she is more influential than she needs to be. Directing operations is also fairly stressful for a dog - they do better with boundaries.

Villainousbroodmare I like this theory about making your dog more humble. I am curious what do you do if your dog comes to you for a pet? Like first thing in the morning when they are happy to see you?

I know our own dog who is 10 months once did a little snap at me when she was little and she was in the sofa and had had enough pats from me. And after that I did feel she needed to know her place a bit and no longer allowed her on the sofa. For a while she couldn’t come in to the lounge as she was just too young and kept jumping on and off the sofa. Now she is allowed in sometimes but is told to go to her bed and gets occasional treats thrown her way for staying in the right place.

Tuibbi always acknowledge and pet him. Then probably send him off to do something. It's on my terms. If I'm busy he won't be getting a full-body massage.

@villainousbroodmare

I don't let my dog on furniture and I don't go to him to stroke him like someone paying homage to the emperor. I ask him for something - a sit, a toy, a trick - for everything. Strokes and cuddles and treats, even dinner and car rides are all earned. He adores us, has a brilliant life and is very humble (in an entirely good way). I could leave a steak on the floor and he wouldn't touch it (although he would do certainly alert me to the fact that it was there!). I only have to tell him anything once. I know pack theory is discredited but I think your dog thinks she is more influential than she needs to be. Directing operations is also fairly stressful for a dog - they do better with boundaries.

I agree Pack theory is rubbish but dogs do need clear boundaries. It’s safer, easier and I believe it makes them happier too. Plenty of dogs can be allowed on the furniture with no issues but some (including ours) can’t.

I would agree with this too. It is possible for the dog to end up thinking they are very important and the one giving the orders, rather than the other way around. I am a first time dog owner and still learning myself, trying not to respond to her barks to tell me to do things etc !

@ThesecondLEM

Some dogs, mine included, will growl at me for attention, we can have quite a conversation.

It will have a very different tone to a warning growl. Cockerpoos can be highly strung and snappy in my experience so this is something to keep an eye on. However I would probably not be overly concerned at this stage.

Mouthing is to be discouraged as an unwanted behaviour and should equal end of fun and fuss. It can be associated with a firm no, don't shout, and you walking away and refusing to interact. It is however very normal behaviour that your dog should grow out of.

I agree with this. My dog (and previous dogs) also has a “talking” noise that is like a growl, it means she wants more fuss. She always does it when being stroked. She might put a paw on me at the same time. It looks very different from an actual growling dog , the body language is completely different, and the sound is different too, although sometimes people who don’t know her think it is a proper growl.

I am really really trying to achieve this dream humble dog, I never respond to barks for food or attention, I make her do a sit or a trick or something for every treat, she’s very eager to please, she has never once eaten from us at the table, in fact she’s never had human food at all - but I’m clearly not doing a great job. As she’s always jumping up at the table/work top, I can’t seem to stop the mouthing, and I have no idea how I’d make the sofa a no go zone. It would be impossible. How do you do that?! The sofa/tv is in the kitchen, it’s one big open plan area. I’d literally have to be by the sofa all day every day to prevent her getting on it.

As for the growl (or similar demanding vocalisation) - how do we get from not punishing a growl to not letting them rule the roost?! Would removing her from the sofa at that point constitute punishment? I’m a bit confused there.

Also - villainous When you say you only have to tell her something once - surely it wasn’t always like this? As a puppy? I feel like I must be doing something very wrong because there are certain things I just can’t crack (all inside the house - she’s amazing at walks, on or off lead, excellent recall, brilliant with people and great at walking on by if I don’t want her to stop and play. I just can’t seem to control her in the house!)

oh 3Andadog I totally get where you are coming from. I also agree if you can’t “punish the growl” then how do you get them to realise they can’t growl at you to say “I own this sofa, you can only come and pet me here when I say” and if the sofa is permanently available in the area you are in then how on earth do you keep them off it. I am sure someone more experienced will be able to offer advise. It certainly is not straightforward at all

Punishing a growl is like taking the batteries out of a smoke alarm. The growl is the warning the dog is uncomfortable.
You need to stop what you are doing when the dog growls and in future don’t have that set up again - whether that’s dogs not on the sofa or not the mix of you and DH, whatever. A lot of dogs feel uncomfortable with close contact and it sounds like she was relaxed with you and was upset by DH touching her?

Set your dog up for success, don’t put them in situations where they feel uncomfortable. You say she was relaxed but if you study dog body language and you will notice the signs before the growl - lip licking, whale eye, yawning, shaking. This is how dogs communicate, as is growling. A bite is a last resort but if you discipline the early warning signs you will end up with a dog that doesn’t warn and just bites. 6 months is too old for mouthing and you are teaching her it is acceptable to put her mouth on human hands - use kongs and other chew toys and put them in her mouth if she tries to mouth your hand.
Seek a proper APDT or IMDT dog trainer not some uneducated ‘pack theory’/ dominance person.

It will probably be more difficult to train her not to get on the sofa at this point (since she’s been allowed on it until now) than it would have been not to allow it in the first place. But it’s definitely not impossible. Have you taught her “four paws on the floor” and how to settle on a bed or mat? I think I would start there if I were you. It sounds as though she might be anxious or unsettled in the house for some reason. If her bed or mat becomes a relaxing place for her, that might help her feel calmer.

I am very impressed (and slightly jealous) by how well behaved she is outside though. My pup’s recall is very hit and miss, especially if he sees another dog. Or squirrel or leaf. . .

Best book ever

https://www.theworks.co.uk/p/pet-books/the-perfect-puppy/9780600637011.html?CAWELAID=720011340002910700&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxbWz2s--9AIVtIBQBh23uAQ-EAQYASABEgKzbfD_BwE

I taught my dog she could come up on the sofa when we said. She is 9 now and still gets down when we ask her to. I think you always need to be able to get your dog to stop doing something you don't want them to. Another thing I am so glad we taught her was 'mine' which means she drops whatever she is holding (unless it's illegally found food (in the loosest sense) when out and about.)
Growling isn't a worry per say, but you need to have a look at what is happening before your dog growls. It could just be they are tired and need to go to their bed. It could be this sofa is mine and they don't want you on it, which you need to step up your training on this.

The recall really is good, I don’t know how, but we used a 10m lead until very recently so I guess she learned her permitted radius.

I haven’t been able to teach 4 paws on the floor and I don’t really know how. Tbh every time she jumps up I say down, when she is down I say down and reward her. Doesn’t seem to be working at all.

Haven’t been able to teach settle either. If I throw a treat at her in her bed she jumps up and starts looking for more. Does the opposite of settle. She will settle on the sofa with a yak chew or something and occasionally on the floor but tbh I’d rather she wasn’t chewing stuff on the sofa. It was just an easy way to unwind her when she was small and had the zoomies.

I guess I’ve been working on teaching her other things. Like sleeping in her crate, walking nicely, the lead walking took up a lot of time and effort, toileting etc - I feel a bit like I have messed up a bit by not teaching better manners around the house and her not being able to settle on command.

I’m not sure she’s unsettled or anxious (although she does have some separation anxiety I guess and I can’t go out for more than 1.5 hours, and even that has to be very carefully timed with a sleep in her crate.

As for not liking the set up on the sofa, avocado, I can’t agree with that - she spends every single evening curled up on the sofa with us both, in various configurations, always totally relaxed and asleep, usually trying to get her head on either of our laps and more often than not (like right now) sprawled out asleep on her back with her legs in the air and pawing for affection. We love having her on the sofa in the evenings but it’s difficult in the day when she’s wired and wants to play. We are all happy with the idea of having her there but maybe we need to rethink it. She loves nestling in with the kids while they watch telly too, as do they - until she stands up and starts wagging her tail in someone’s face!

The more I think about it the more I think she was growling at DH for telling her off for mouthing me. I need to crack the mouthing, obviously, but sometimes turning away/removing myself doesn’t work as she just starts biting the backs of my ankles or my trousers.

Anyway, I feel totally overwhelmed with all the things I need to work on. Not sure how or where to start.

Have a look at the dog training advice and support group on Facebook OP. There are lots of guides there including how to teach 4 paws on the floor. Really really invaluable for me. They also have a premium group starting on 1st December you pay 20 and you can post for advice when you like as long as you've read the guides