Abandoning Crate Training - Letting Puppy sleep downstairs?

[bella1426]

Hi All, first time dog owner here so please be gentle :) We have recently gotten our dream golden retriever who is 4 months old now and she is the most wonderful dog. In spite of our inexperience she has been relatively easy to train in many ways. The one small issue we are having is around crate training. I realise we have made some mistakes with inconsistencies here but we're wondering whether to abandon it or keep going.
She will go in at night OK but around 3 or 4 will start barking and won't really stop until someone comes down and lets her out. (it's not for toileting, we've let her out for that and nothing) We've tried toughing it out, we've given in and let her out for cuddles, slept on the sofa with her, let her out and gone back to bed, on one or two occasions not put her in at night (yeah I know, we're a bit all over the place....)
I work from home so there is nearly always someone here, when I have needed to go out for an hour or two I've just let her stay out of the crate.
The thing is - any alone time in the house or downstairs she's had - overnight, day times, partial night - she's been good as gold, no barking, chewing anything, toileting - absolutely perfect. We have an outdoor area she plays in a lot and likes chewing the shed, swing set, lots of toys etc but seems to somehow have developed a respect for the indoors (wishful thinking??)
We're at a point now where we're wondering whether to buy a crate the next size up and persevere - and if we do how do we undo the bad work from the inconsistent practices? Or if we allow her to live and sleep outside the crate. It's an open plan kitchen/dining/living area with all electrics safely out of reach and no small choke toys so all very safe for her. The only thing of any value she could wreck is the fabric sofa but so far she has displayed no interest in doing anything to that but lie on it.
So my question is - would abandoning crate training now be potentially the right move for a happier more rested dog and household or is she likely to get a lot more destructive during the adolescent years? Any advice gratefully received!

@StarfishDish our dog would also do this in the morning if he thought we had got up too early! Would have his breakfast and then would ask to go back to bed (we put a cover over his crate like a budgie!).

@Floralnomad

Obviously no dog should be left for hours a day , but in the real world lots of people work and have dogs and in my opinion it’s worse if the dog is confined to a very small space where he has limited movement . I’m not out for an argument , each to their own , but IMO dogs should not be kept in cages in their home .

Giving them an extra couple of feet of space while neglecting them isn’t that much of an improvement.

Used properly they’re like a cot for puppies and a safe space for older dogs.

My current dog actually doesn’t ever get the door closed - he might at some point occasionally for things like meter readers because he’s not awfully happy about strangers in the house (and there isn’t much point or time to get him to make friends with people coming in for stuff like that)

It’s just somewhere tucked away that he can feel secure because he’s a stressy rescue. I could probably create that by rearranging all my furniture - but why reinvent the wheel when I can just stick a covered crate in a quiet corner for him?

We don't have a crate for our dog and haven't had any problems. She has a couple of beds she can go to, and when we got out or to bed, she has the run of downstairs. She doesn't get up on the couch when alone...I have her trained that if I put her special blanket beside me, she can hop up and snuggle in. When there's no blanket, she doesn't bother.
My inlaws have a big Rottweiler who has a crate, and I hate seeing her cooped up when they're going out. It seems like such a shame.

We have a crate and dog isn’t overly keen. For some dogs they are great and time out from the house and noise if it’s a busy one. Doesn’t need to be locked. We did grate games by Susan Garret and made it fun but our dog liked his raised bed. So he sleeps there he’s now 1 but slept in livingroom from 7 months quite happily and didn’t chew anything he didn’t try to anyway so we knew he wasn’t destructive. He has plenty enrichment and time spent but also left to rest and sleep as that’s important too. I do think crates have their place if trained correctly with your dog but locking dogs in them isn’t something I feel comfortable with.

It should be a safe space, quiet and peaceful that a dog can go to sleep some like it dark - ours has a cover. And they should be completely happy to be in there and left alone but not for hours on end otherwise it’s just dog jail. Needs to be started as young as you can. Boundary training helps with this as it can be incorporated but just having a happy dog is your priority. Op you could gate off your kitchen or wherever you want the dog to be so he doesn’t have so much freedom in case he starts chewing or eating shoes etc mine never has thankfully

For those people saying their dogs see their crates as a safe space that they take themselves off to - that's wonderful. But you can create a secure space for your dog anywhere. One of mine takes herself behind the sofa if she's scared; another will find an empty quiet room when he wants to nap.

But for every one of you kind souls who leaves the cage door open so the dog is in charge, I dread to think how many people see cages as a means of constraining their dog's movements and locking them away when they're at work. Can you imagine being shut in one small place for hours and being hot/cold/bored/frightened by a noise outside that you can't investigate - and having no control over being stuck there?

My dogs have free run of the house. They take themselves off to cool flagstones in the kitchen when they're hot, they settle under a radiator when they're cold, they follow us round and take an interest in what we're doing, they rush to the window if there's something interesting going on outside.

I understand that not everyone wants a dog on the sofa/bed etc but you can use safety gates or just close doors to keep dogs out of certain rooms.

@Medievalist yes, but not if your dog eats doors 😁

My dog needs more training before he can be allowed out of the crate 24/7 (or to stop teething, he is currently shedding teeth and has inflamed gums where new ones push through… he just needs to bite bite bite. He needs me to direct his biting to pre-approved objects

He’s currently in his crate when I am out, and at night. Most of the say he’s by my side as I WFH though

The crate is a godsend for us

Marlene - so how did people manage prior to dog cages which are, after all, a modern invention? Puppies will bite and chew so do need lots of play and constant supervision I'm afraid. Left to their own devices they will chew things up 🤷‍♀️.

@Medievalist Dogs don't need constant supervision. Not everybody can be with their dog all the time.

I can see both sides on this, our Springer was an older rescue so we just taught him that downstairs was for him to sleep (baby gates) as thought crate would be too much to expect and as sleeping downstairs works great for him then job done. He copes with the vets and kennels although of course we don't know if he'd cope better if he was used to being a bit more cooped up. But my dad has a younger cocker who IS crate trained (as in, uses it as a refuge by choice as well) and that suits them well.

Maybe a bigger crate worth a go and then if still no good be thankful you've chosen a placid breed and run with having a downstairs dog? I do wonder if it's harder for bigger breeds to settle in a comparatively smaller space.

@Medievalist I remember people keeping sun kennels, back in the day

I am assuming where you are speaking from a position of privilege, where you are able to supervise 24/7 and don’t have to bother with work, cleaning, school runs etc

@Medievalist

Marlene - so how did people manage prior to dog cages which are, after all, a modern invention? Puppies will bite and chew so do need lots of play and constant supervision I'm afraid. Left to their own devices they will chew things up 🤷‍♀️.

It's not possible to supervise your dog 24/7

It's not possible to supervise your dog 24/7

No, but it should be possible to create a safe environment for them without using a cage.

I am assuming where you are speaking from a position of privilege, where you are able to supervise 24/7 and don’t have to bother with work, cleaning, school runs etc

I've had dogs and done all of those things just fine thank you, without having to use a cage. Admittedly I've mainly wfh. But I wouldn't have dogs if I had to leave them alone all day.

@Medievalist

It's not possible to supervise your dog 24/7

No, but it should be possible to create a safe environment for them without using a cage.

That’s all dependant on the dog, the layout or size of the house, if there are other pets to take into account - it’s not a black and white thing tbh.

I've never crate trained a dog - neither current rescue dog (came to me a totally untrained adolescent) nor any of the dogs I had growing up have ever seen a crate.

DDog has a couple of beds in very quiet places where he knows he can "get away from it all" (one under my bed, the other in a quiet corner of the lounge) but he can't be shut in those spaces.

I thought the purpose of the crate is for toilet training in the first weeks and to provide them with a safe area of their own afterwards. Mine always slept there with the door open once they were toilet trained.

If she is toilet trained, not destructive and she is not into chewing things that may hurt her, I would be tempted to let her sleep with the door open. Having said that, you have not gone through dog adolescence as yet so be prepared to make adjustments again in a couple of months time.

@Medievalist

It's not possible to supervise your dog 24/7

No, but it should be possible to create a safe environment for them without using a cage.

@Medievalist Impossible in my house. We left him in the kitchen and he chewed all things wooden. Each thing caused splinters which if swallowed, wouldn't have been good thing...

In the living room, he liked chewing cables, plugs and anything else!

A crate was definitely the best thing for him

I thought the purpose of the crate is for toilet training in the first weeks

Yes - that's what many people use them for. The idea is dogs are distressed if they have to soil where they sleep. So it teaches them to put up with the discomfort of needing to relieve themselves until someone lets them out. It means owners get an undisturbed night.

Or you can do what I did with an un/house trained rescue pup and sleep downstairs with it so i could rush it outside every time it woke (about every two hours).

How long were you leaving him for Starfish?

@Medievalist Varied anything from 10 minutes to upto 4 hours.

@Medievalist But due to his size, he should have been in a large crate but we bought him an XXL crate so he had plenty of room. He had chew toys in his crate which he'd chew (wouldn't entertain them if out of his crate). He also willingly went into his crate too and would sit and wait for us to close the gate before he'd snuggle down on his blanket in there.

Our dog came to us with a crate but he was never happy in it. He rarely chose to go in it or to use it as a safe space. He cried and barked at night when we encouraged him to go in it and was so much happier when we finally did away with it. He now has the run of downstairs in the evening, with a gate on the stairs to stop him coming up.

He (and we!) seemed so much happier when we did away with the crate. He slept through as soon as we let him choose where he could sleep. We haven't had problems with him chewing or scratching things at night, despite being a breed that has a reputation for being easily bored.

I know lots of dogs that love their crate but it didn't seemed to work for us.

@StarfishDish - well that's great. You have me at a disadvantage in that I don't know you, your house or your dog so it's impossible for me to put forward suggestions as to how you might manage without a cage.

At least you use a cage as they were intended to be used. But I stand by my belief that for every responsible owner there will be goodness knows how many who misuse cages for their own convenience. If we didn't have them people who think dogs should be shut away when they're an inconvenience might think twice about getting one. People who are out all day may not be so keen to have a dog if they were coming home to a wrecked house each evening. As it is, they think it's okay to cage their dogs for ridiculous lengths of time every day because (as you so often read on here) everybody does it. So it must be okay - right? .

If we didn't make it so easy for people to own dogs and encourage the belief that a cage is an essential piece of dog equipment (as the op seems to think) that might drive down the number of unscrupulous dog breeders who are happy to exploit living creatures for profit.

@Medievalist Sorry, I thought I put earlier that we don't use it now He's just turned one and he hasn't been in a crate (locked in) since he was about 9 months. We don't regret the crate as it was for his safety but I do agree there are some people who misuse them.