12 week puppy doesn’t like being left in crate

[MumsGoneToIceland]

First time puppy owner and would like advice on how to get to the point where he is happy in his crate so we can leave the room/plan to go out .

At nighttime he goes in crate fine at 9.30/10 ( can’t get him to stay awake later than that or if occasionally we do then he doesn’t sleep in any later). Wakes at around 5/5.30, take out for a wee and then put back in crate till 6 but usually cries until we get up at 6. (Have an alarm to go off at 6 near him to tell him it’s up time but not making a difference atm).. Once I get him up at 6, will then end up sleeping on me for an hour so is not as if he’s ready to start the day just wants company.

During the day, have been trying to get him used to being alone in crate and had got to about 15/20 mins with him staying quiet ( left him about 7 am to go upstairs and get ready/kids up, once or twice a day to have meetings in another room and went out for a lunchtime walk for about the same length of time each day and came back to quiet) . Now he’s crying pretty much all the time he’s left.

I know some people go straight back to work with a puppy where they could be left for a couple of hours and am starting. to feel like i can’t see a point where we could pop to town for a couple of hours etc and wonder if us being around so much has been a bad thing.

So have we made a mistake by not leaving him enough in the early days . Do we leave him to cry and if not how do we do this?

I have taken a step back in training and gone to trying to put him in his crate at random times whilst working in the same room, giving a treat for sitting with door shut and then ignoring him (working with my back to him), then giving him a treat for sitting quiet afte4 x mins , then turn back to working and leaving it longer but can’t get to more than 2 mins before he cries and am sat right by him with my back to him. Was hoping to get to 10 min gaps between treats and praise and then to start doing similar but leaving the room.

We’ve left the radio on, left him with a yak milk chew treat he loves but still cries.

Have we done things all wrong and is there a way to undo it? Starting to feel restricted and don’t want to start feeling resentful.

Thank you!

As a new dog owner you are not supposed to be born with the knowledge about how to treat your dog, but a good breeder or rescue centre, should have asked you where he was going to be kept - infact rescue centres should do a home visit before agreeing to you having one of their dogs - and how long he was going to be left alone for on most days. Raising a dog is a massive undertaking, but if you are a "dog person/family" the rewards of having a dog as part of your family, far outweighs all the hard work that (at least initially) goes into it. Please decide soon if having a puppy is right for your family, or not. Good luck OP.

We did get the puppy from a good breeder as far as I’m concerned who checked we wasn’t going to be out at work all day which we are not. However I was never asked, would I never leave my dog alone. I’ve never known anyone’s set up be that way. Even left in a wider area he doesn’t like being left if we go upstairs to get something. If he was ever going to be left for more than 2 hours, I planned a dog walker or daycare but can’t do that every time I want to simply run an errand. I thought these were reasonable expectations.

We did, I thought, quite a lot of research and watched a lot of training videos but crate training featured a lot in that research we did, so to hear so many opposite comments about crate training I’m finding very confusing if I’m honest.

We slept next to the crate the first couple of nights and then a bit further away and now he happily left downstairs then have always assumed at night a cry (we get one) means he needs to go out and have done so then put him quietly back in his crate. He goes in it brilliantly at night.

In the day, we’ve taken him out for wees etc every half an hour initially , now extended to up to an hour and he is very good now but he doesn’t alert us that he needs to go out and instead quietly sits at a door we can’t see from where we work so very occasionally accidents do occur. But he doesnt do it in his crate. Also learnt this week that he won’t do poos in heavy rain so has done that indoors. He’s never been scolded for any accident and I don’t know where anyone got the impression that we had done or that we exoected to leave a dog alone all day. So I’m a bit saddened by some of the comments.

So I did think we were invested dog owners. Just that it was ok and healthy to be separated from him at times for short periods. If it’s a case we are expecting too much too soon then that’s fair enough, however what I don’t want is that he gets so used to being around us constantly which is currently the case that we create a habit that’s difficult to undo and he can’t be left which again is what I had read was happening particularly with lockdown.

Thanks for your comments

It is healthy for adult dogs and older puppies to generally have some separation and space but at 12 weeks old few puppies are yet ready for that. Another recommendation for the dog training and advice over on Facebook where there are many files to be read on crate training and leaving pups - the methods to make eventually leaving them for short periods positive for them and the psychology of why you shouldn't do it yet or wherever they are upset as that's just reinforcing that it's not a positive thing

Thanks @catsforlife for your supportive comments and helpful advice. I really wasn’t expecting suggestions of rehoming when I posted

@MumsGoneToIceland Just ignore them! You are the same as virtually all the other dog owners I know. Leave the haters to their ivory doggy towers. Honestly you could be driven to the edge mental health wise by some of the things people say on here. Anyway, back to HELPING... on your point on being around all the time. I also worried about this as our pup was just not left at all until 5/6 months as there was always someone around. But, it was fine building it up. Listen, I know how you’re feeling because I’ve been there but it does get easier. I promise. But, 12 weeks is still small and as they grow in confidence they understand more about space and the fact you come back. My pup barked constantly for the 30 secs it took for me to nip to loo. But gradually she stopped barking, then just waited at the bottom of the stairs, and now doesn’t get up if she’s sleeping. And no this post is not an in for all the haters to say “what did you expect getting a dog?!” Well, the honest answer to that is after 24/7 supervision for several months, I did expect to be able to take my kids out for an hour, so that’s what I worked towards. For the poster suggesting re-homing... have a word with yourself and think about how you make others feel. OP - you’ve not done anything wrong. You will get there and you are not a bad dog owner for wanting to leave the house and ensure your dog’s safety when you do so!

@MumsGoneToIceland it totally is normal and healthy to get your puppy used to being left alone for short periods. I personally believe it’s better to do it early than have an older dog on your hands that’s never been left and suddenly they need to get used to it.

So I did think we were invested dog owners. Just that it was ok and healthy to be separated from him at times for short periods.

It absolutely is okay and healthy - please don't let anyone on here make you believe otherwise!

It can just take some puppies longer than others to get used to being alone and that's okay. It doesn't mean you're doing something wrong - it just means your pup needs a little more reassurance than others :)

Also, to the people who think putting a dog in a crate to sleep, so you also think it’s cruel to put a baby in a cot to sleep?

Do you have a laundry room or a large bathroom? That’s what we used to do before puppy was ok to be left alone in the house. We still have baby gates on the stairs and she’s 4. I sort of view her as a toddler you can leave alone for a while! Make sure she can’t hurt herself and block of an area she can go.

Honestly I think because your pup is so good at going in the crate to sleep, your expectations of a 12 week old wrt being left are just a bit too high.

Like when a toddler is really good at talking and people get surprised they're still having tantrums - just because one thing is really well developed it doesn't mean the other thing is. I think you're doing amazingly with sleep - give yourself a pat on the back for that and try to not fret about separation because you will get there.

If you search this part of the forum you will see 100s of posts from people with puppy blues, but they get over it!

I think the first place to start though is seeing if there's a part of the house that can be puppy-proofed. If that's not possible then go right back to basics with the crate. The key I think is to make it feel different during the day, otherwise you're basically ordering the dog back to bed! So do you have a bigger one for daytime, more treats, in another part of the house? (Although I honestly think it's easier to puppy proof a bigger space)

I would never put my dog in a crate. Let alone a puppy! Poor thing. Would you leave your baby in a cage crying alone for two hours? Different if asleep sure. Cruel fad, I hate it.

@LadyCatStark that’s the stupidest comparison I have heard in a long time. Trust Mumsnet! 😂😂😂

OP go back to leaving the crate door open. Forget trying to close it for the time being. When he’s not looking sprinkle a few treats in the crate randomly throughout the day. Also do lots of tiring games/brain work with him, then toilet him, and put him in the crate but leave the door open. Have the crate right beside where you are working. Have his bedding in it and nothing soft he can choose to lie on elsewhere in the room and put a stuffed Kong with some of his daily food allowance in it. Keep repeating this process for each of his meals. He’ll be tired, with a full belly and empty bladder, on a cosy bed and beside his human. He will work out that the crate is a pretty comfortable place to be. Gradually he will choose to go there himself for his daily snoozes. Once he is doing that you can close the door and see how he responds. He probably won’t be bothered if he’s snoozing. Make sure to open the door as soon as he starts fidgeting and take him out to toilet. Then let him stay out. Repeat the process again later in the day and so on.

12 weeks is very young, they’re still babies and have a natural instinct to be near to their caregiver and to cry when they can’t see you. We crated ours overnight to teach her to be toilet trained but she started to hate it around 7 months so we ditched it and haven’t looked back. She is fine to be left alone now in lounge. I see crates as a short term solution for puppy toilet training rather than somewhere for them to be in in the day. But understand you are looking for an interim solution until they’re sensible enough to be left in the lounge without chewing through cables etc.

[quote Poorlykitten]@LadyCatStark that’s the stupidest comparison I have heard in a long time. Trust Mumsnet! 😂😂😂[/quote]
Erm literally the only difference is that the crate has a roof…

Why not puppy-proof a room and use stair gates to close off open-plan areas?

@LadyCatStark in that case, why doesn’t the OP dispense with the crate and utilise a cot instead?

[quote Poorlykitten]@LadyCatStark in that case, why doesn’t the OP dispense with the crate and utilise a cot instead?[/quote]
Well a puppy could probably squeeze through the bars but other than that, yes why not? Because it does the same job. Honestly, you’re just looking for an argument.

Of course he doesn’t want to be shut away. He’s a baby. He wants to be with you. Let him. As he gets older he will gradually be happier to be left. If you leave a dog to cry in a crate he’s more likely to develop separation anxiety.

Wow. Mumsnet always comes up with the goods. In which case Ladycat, a play pen is perfect. Significantly bigger and just as ‘safe’ if going out for a short while. Rather than being locked in a tiny crate. Many people have suggested this and seems the perfect compromise.

LadyCatStark, I found the way you spoke to me very offensive. If you don't want to read about people who think that a dog's actual physical and mental health well being is more important in the long run than whether they (unintentionally as it happens) hurt an adults feelings when replying to that adult (who has asked for advice about their 12 WEEK old puppy), then just as I was trying to consider whether the OP actually understood, and in doing so would still want to have a dog - or at least, a tiny puppy, she might be happier with a rescue dog that is older, and already trained - I have to SUGGEST to you that you don't actually read anyone elses answers to the OP, because it can be guaranteed that they won't all agree with you, and/or the OP. My heart is actually hurting a lot thinking about that tiny 12 week old puppy being made as sad as the OPs original post made it sound he was. You told me to think about what I said to another person, but you didn't afford me the same courtesy. I am not going to liken you to any typical MNers, for your rude and unthinking post to me, because with the possible exception of the AIBU board, I don"t find MN is full of a lot of sheep who like to (or are unable not to) follow the first nasty response to an often heartfelt query. I find the majority of MNers to be kind of heart, intelligent, eloquent, and to mean well when giving their advice. Unfortunately, we will all have times when our advice is not suitable for the OP on any given topic, we may inadvertantly hurt someone's feelings, but as long as that was not our reason for saying what we did, and as long as we didn't feel glee when we found out that we had hurt someone's feelings (and very sadly it appears that some people - everywhere in the World, not just on MN - do actually enjoy upsetting other people, I can promise you that I am not one of them), then I think that we should be forgiven. I did once say an incredibly unkind thing to an OP on MN, I was quite rightly temporarily stopped from being able to respond to posters and repriminded - more kindly than I deserved. My reaction at that time had been because of a very bad trigger that the topic had caused in me, but that is no excuse, I should not have opened a post on that topic, and I definitely should not have replied. I only hope that the OP from that topic has completely forgotten my awfully insensitive and cruel reply, or that she didn't give it any headspace in the first place. By the way LadyCat did you read all of my reply to the OP, or did you get so incensed by the first part that you didn't read any further? The other option of course is that you saw the length of my reply and just couldn't be bothered - I wouldn't blame you, I must be the most longwinded, boring responder on MN, and no, I am not proud of that title! I wish I could use 3 words instead of 7, 8, or 9, when trying to explain something, I even end up boring myself in the end! But unfortunately my eloquence (and maybe intelligence) is no-where near the standard of most posters on MN. I will stop now, as I still hope to respond to the OPs response to me - but one last thing, the welfare of animals and children is the hill I am willing to die on, I just don't want to devastate someones feelings whilst doing so, I don't think that I devastated the OP's feelings in this topic.

MN has become such an awful place these days. Every few weeks I wander onto here to see if it's any better and stumble across thread after thread of people just trying to verbally hurt each other. It's awful.

OP: your dog is still a baby. He is still biologically hard wired to worry when he is left alone - and to make so much noise that his family come back to him. That's his survival instinct kicking in because he is not old enough to care for or defend himself.

Depending on breed, they will mature sometime around 2-4 years old. If you get there and can leave them, you will have done ok. In the meantime, lots of micro practices: things like popping upstairs to get something and leaving the dog downstairs while you do. It'll feel like nothing is working but really, it's most likely because you simply still have a baby on your hands and he still needs much, much more practice and reassurance and learning to start to feel confident being left.

We humans always seem to vastly under estimate how long it "should" take a dog to learn something

Hi OP, I do need to apologise to you for at least one thing, and that is that when I started my reply to you, you had only made your first post, but unfortunately due to a lot of things happening in a reasonably short space of time here (at my home), I couldn't finish my response to you for a while, and as I only have my phone I couldn't check what other replys you had received, or given without losing what I had already written.

I have since re-read your OP several times, and as a stand alone I still garner from it the information that you wanted to leave your 12 week old puppy (who at the most would have only been seperated from his mum and siblings for 4 weeks) alone locked in his cage so that you could go out, to me, that meant for hours on end, maybe even all day when you went back to work or a day out! You said something along the lines of you felt like giving up on the training you had already given him, that he wasn't progressing quickly enough for you, and that you were already worried that you might start resenting him. To me, your first post seemed to be very much about you, and how your needs weren't being met, rather than worrying about how your 12 week old pup's needs were obviously not being met (LadyCatStark is probably going to have another go at me for that). I simply could not, in any way, sit back and let you think that locking a young puppy who needs it's family (who are now you and the rest of your family, rather than his mum and siblings) into a small cage for hours on end - infact no matter whatever their age, a dog (or any animal) should not be locked up for hours, under those circumstances, unless you know it is asleep, as at nightime. So that post made me think that MAYBE your home circumstances meant that having a puppy was not suitable for you, I was not blaming you for trying, I was not accusing you of being a horrible person, I just felt that you should know that it would be ok to rehome him if you couldn't, or didn't want to cope with him, because as he was such a young pup, it should be easy to find a suitable home for him, where he could be left in a room when his family had to go out, rather than in a small cage. At no time did I say that that was the only fair thing to do, I tried to explain how much time and energy a puppy takes (you did start off by saying that you had never had a puppy before), and I suggested that if you kept him, you got some professional training for you both - that wasn't meant as an insult, it would be advisable for all first-time puppy owners to get training for both them and their dog. In fact lots of people still take new puppies to training (amongst other things it helps to socialise them) even when they are very experienced puppy owners, or maybe even because they are!

In your later posts (please remember that I hadn't read them before posting my response to your OP) you made it clear that you only meant to leave your puppy for up to a couple of hours, and not very often anyway, that is very different to what I originally thought, and I don't know which of us is to blame for that - if indeed we need to blame anyone! However, whilst your puppy is awake, the only time I believe it to be ok to leave him in his cage, is when the door is open. I also noticed that in a later post you tried him in a playpen (much preferable for an awake puppy, as long as it has everything he needs in it, and he has room to move about), but that he jumped out - is he a baby Weimaraner 😂 Would it be possible to make the bars taller so that he can't jump out whilst you are out, or upstairs, until housetrained? I was very relieved to hear that you intend to take him to doggy daycare during your longer absences, he should love that, and I was very touched to read that you slept by your puppy's cage for the first few nights until he settled. I was also glad that you had indeed read up about puppies before you bought one, and that you are indeed invested in him. Please do be prepared for some toilet accidents from him for a while yet (and probably again when he is old - it is very sad then, because you know the end is coming, which is very traumatising, and the years fly by so quickly...) I hope that all of you have a lovely life together.

@HeartvsBrain

LadyCatStark, I found the way you spoke to me very offensive. If you don't want to read about people who think that a dog's actual physical and mental health well being is more important in the long run than whether they (unintentionally as it happens) hurt an adults feelings when replying to that adult (who has asked for advice about their 12 WEEK old puppy), then just as I was trying to consider whether the OP actually understood, and in doing so would still want to have a dog - or at least, a tiny puppy, she might be happier with a rescue dog that is older, and already trained - I have to SUGGEST to you that you don't actually read anyone elses answers to the OP, because it can be guaranteed that they won't all agree with you, and/or the OP. My heart is actually hurting a lot thinking about that tiny 12 week old puppy being made as sad as the OPs original post made it sound he was. You told me to think about what I said to another person, but you didn't afford me the same courtesy. I am not going to liken you to any typical MNers, for your rude and unthinking post to me, because with the possible exception of the AIBU board, I don"t find MN is full of a lot of sheep who like to (or are unable not to) follow the first nasty response to an often heartfelt query. I find the majority of MNers to be kind of heart, intelligent, eloquent, and to mean well when giving their advice. Unfortunately, we will all have times when our advice is not suitable for the OP on any given topic, we may inadvertantly hurt someone's feelings, but as long as that was not our reason for saying what we did, and as long as we didn't feel glee when we found out that we had hurt someone's feelings (and very sadly it appears that some people - everywhere in the World, not just on MN - do actually enjoy upsetting other people, I can promise you that I am not one of them), then I think that we should be forgiven. I did once say an incredibly unkind thing to an OP on MN, I was quite rightly temporarily stopped from being able to respond to posters and repriminded - more kindly than I deserved. My reaction at that time had been because of a very bad trigger that the topic had caused in me, but that is no excuse, I should not have opened a post on that topic, and I definitely should not have replied. I only hope that the OP from that topic has completely forgotten my awfully insensitive and cruel reply, or that she didn't give it any headspace in the first place. By the way LadyCat did you read all of my reply to the OP, or did you get so incensed by the first part that you didn't read any further? The other option of course is that you saw the length of my reply and just couldn't be bothered - I wouldn't blame you, I must be the most longwinded, boring responder on MN, and no, I am not proud of that title! I wish I could use 3 words instead of 7, 8, or 9, when trying to explain something, I even end up boring myself in the end! But unfortunately my eloquence (and maybe intelligence) is no-where near the standard of most posters on MN. I will stop now, as I still hope to respond to the OPs response to me - but one last thing, the welfare of animals and children is the hill I am willing to die on, I just don't want to devastate someones feelings whilst doing so, I don't think that I devastated the OP's feelings in this topic.

WTF are you on about??? I wasn’t talking to you, I was talking to the PP who said that MN had gone crazy lately and this huge long rant proves my point!

Many many people crate their dogs, however the majority are crate trained and the crate is a ‘happy’ place, it’s their bed, their security and a safe quiet space for them. I’d recommend crate games by Susan Garrett we used these and my golden retriever goes up to his crate himself - however he’s never locked in. He can be but initially we put the puppy pen round it for sleep times and played in there with him fed him etc. He actually sleeps loose in the living room - he has a raised bed which is his boundary his crate is at the back of the room so he’ll move between them, found him in it with the cat the other morning.

If you don’t want to crate him and lock him in, get a really big crate or a decent puppy pen but also trust him in the environment, praise nothing. So when he’s settled but awake quietly go up and give him a treat/kibble tell him he’s a good boy - very soothing. And leave him be. You want him to know when he’s settled and good he gets rewarded. We’ve done this from a young age our 10 month old is so calm in the house, can be left free and doesn’t destroy or chew, mainly because we rewarded nothing and gave value to his environment.
You’ll get there op, find what works for you and a decent trainer and you’ll have a lovely dog you can take anywhere soon enough

Our crates were places they learnt to associate with food, treats, toys and bones. As a result they were fine with them and actively choose them.

Maybe take a step back op and sit with a clicker and reward every time he goes near and goes in, give something high value in there and relax about him being shut in for now.