Puppy targeting toddler

[Puppalicious]

I strongly suspect I will get my arse handed to me for being a fool - I must be a masochist. But I need advice. My 4 month old rough collie puppy has over the last few days started to seriously target my 19 month old. It’s clearly herding behaviour, but she’s leaping at her with mouth open, knocking her over, nibbling at her arms. It’s not directed at anyone else, not my 5 or 9 yo. Today when I was upstairs with a relative looking after them all downstairs, the puppy apparently targeted her repeatedly, jumping on her and my LO now has a big scratch near her eye.
Up to now, the puppy has been lovely - her sweet and friendly temperament has been much complimented. Clearly she sees LO as a litter mate - and LO will, if we take our eyes off her at all, will run around her to entice a chase. Yes, we were stupid to get a puppy with a toddler. But it’s done now. Is this situation salvageable or do we need to return puppy to breeder before LO gets injured and a good puppy gets ruined? The kids will be devastated if she goes and I will be deeply ashamed. But it would be worse if my LO suffers a bad facial injury. I have emailed a trainer/behaviourist but she has no appointments until end June. Should I see if we can make progress to solve this in the meantime but wait for the behaviourists input?

It is not about disliking dogs, it is about liking children.

I have a large St Bernard puppy, much stronger than a Rough Collie but we use segregation if we can't directly supervise. My youngest is 3y9m. Pup is 7mo now and much less bitey but will get mouthy if restless.

It is hard work keeping everyone safe but with lots of thought and organisation it can be done. My older DC are 14 and almost 11 so they enjoy having a family pet. They are both old enough to enjoy her.

OP make sure you think safety first and you should be okay. My youngest has developmental delays so having our puppy has been a huge benefit to him. He helps to feed "his girl".

My 5yo is still wary of the puppy but he takes this approach with any dog. He will play with the puppy but only on his terms.

@Mischance

What a fascinating thread this is - I am staggered at all these people who regard the danger to this poor infant as minimal and put the needs of the dog first.

The dog does not need behavioural training; it simply needs to go.

The child's well-being comes first.

Dial down the drama.

I find it surprising you are leaving your dog alone with your toddler, you should keep them apart if you are not keeping an eye on them, no matter how gentle puppy and toddler are.

No need to get rid of the dog, just tell her off when targeting the toddler but fgs do not leave them alone together unsupervised.

Just to reiterate what others have said. This does sound like normal puppy behaviour

We have an older lab but I remember for the first six months it was just constant training and watching, often resorting to ignoring him so he'd calm down. This is impossible with a toddler who wants to play. So I don't think he's doing anything unusual.

Unfortunately as you've identified, it probably wasn't a good idea to get a pup with such a young child but with a firm hand, training, commitment and identifying when either are over stimulated and separating them, this can work,

We also have a 16 month old DS and our old lab is constantly pestered to play by our toddler or gets cross that our DS is sat in his comfy spot. So even when they're older and reliable, you still need to watch them like hawks!

And as others have said, absolutely do not leave them alone for ANY amount of time. Our house is full of room dividers and stair gates so anytime we need to pop to another room, we take one of the other with us.

Getting a dog when you have a toddler and a wary of dogs 4YO was a ridiculous thing to do, sorry.

@MoesBar, the toddler, yes, was madness, but the 4 yo worked out very well - he’s very fond of the puppy, but that slight wariness means he’s never in her face. I just wish the toddler was a little more wary!

Hmm tricky one. We had similar issue with collie at 4 months. Definitely wsntedti round up ours son. We dealt with it by my son doing the feeding and some training to show he was boss. Stopped after a week. Don't know how you do this with a toddler though...

Fucking hell, this thread is terrifying!

OP, what you are describing is not herding behaviour (I have a border collie)

What you are describing is normal and expected behaviour for a young puppy
For Christ sake do not listen to those saying to take it back.
At 16 weeks (that is roughly your pups age right?) it is still teething and still learning self control.
It is trying to play with your DD, there’s nothing malicious about it.
If it is tired or overexcited it will be worse.

The solution is to supervise and distract the behaviour each and every time by making the puppy do something not compatible with jumping and biting like a trick like sit or down or simply taking the dog out for a brief time out.

Oh and my DS was 4 when I got our collie and my youngest is nearly 5 and our second pup comes in September.
So I don’t think it was stupid getting a puppy with a 4 year old.

That would have appeared at 8-9 weeks and every puppy I've ever done across it tends to peak at around the 10 week mark
And as for this, at 10 weeks my puppy barely mouthed at all.

Once she hit the 4 month mark she suddenly starting racing at speed and jumping up and biting us on her way past.
All of our clothes had holes in.

It’s normal puppy behaviour and she grew out of it and matured into a very tolerant, gentle, child friendly adult dog.

I think normal puppy behaviour too, our lab cross was like this with my SN DS who was 11 it took us a while to get her to realise he was not a puppy even though he was much older than your toddler, it was the way he interacted with her, there were plenty of tears! My younger daughter (9) was so nervous of the puppy biting stage that she didn’t allow it at all and totally trained the puppy out of it really quickly by adjusting her behaviour - we nicknamed her Barbara Woodhouse as she instinctively knew what to do!
Much tougher with a toddler but I’d suggest gates everywhere so that toddler can be left in a room and the dog can’t get in or vice versa. And only totally supervised time together maybe when puppy is relaxed.

@TheDiddlyGang

That would have appeared at 8-9 weeks and every puppy I've ever done across it tends to peak at around the 10 week mark And as for this, at 10 weeks my puppy barely mouthed at all.

Once she hit the 4 month mark she suddenly starting racing at speed and jumping up and biting us on her way past.
All of our clothes had holes in.

It’s normal puppy behaviour and she grew out of it and matured into a very tolerant, gentle, child friendly adult dog.

Yes to all of this! Our dog didn't stop mouthing until he'd got his adult teeth and even then we kept having to remind him

Jesus Christ. Send the dog back to the breeder and get a different toy for your kids, given that apparently that's what you thought you were buying.

It is indeed normal puppy behaviour. The issue here is that an infant should be protected from it.

She’s 19 weeks. Took her to the groomers for her first visit today and when i picked her up they were absolutely gushing about her, said she had such a good nature, the best of any rough collie they had seen. Maybe they and the vets say that about all puppies I don’t know but this is a place that I understand has banned cockapoos for behavioural reasons so not shy to say if there’s a problem! She’s a special puppy and we’ll do all we can to get over this hump. Glad to hear from those saying it’s normal puppy behaviour, we just need to manage DD’s safety which I think we can do with effort.

Such alarmist advice on this thread! And it’s so unnecessary. Yes, keep the dog and toddler apart while pup is still of nipping age unless you are there supervising them. I have a working springer and a just-turned-3 year old and a 5 year old. The first few months were absolute hell. Pup is now 6/7 months old and would no more consider nipping one of the children than anyone else. Ppl always commented on how sweet natured dpup is and she really is an angel now she is out of the puppy nipping phase. Puts up with all sorts of nonsense from the kids. Helps that she gets a ton of exercise, we’re doing gun dog training with her and she is crate trained.

Such alarmist advice on this thread! - not alarmist. I have worked in hospitals. Dogs "nipping" (i.e.biting) toddler faces make one hell of a mess and cause untold distress.

not alarmist. I have worked in hospitals. Dogs "nipping" (i.e.biting) toddler faces make one hell of a mess and cause untold distress
There is a world of difference between an aggressive bite delivered by an adult dog and a puppy mouthing...

The two are just not comparable at all.

The dog is not aggressive nor dangerous.
It is normal puppy behaviour and the solution is to train the puppy out of it and prevent the puppy being able to rehearse the behaviour, not follow the alarmist and frankly ludicrous advice to return the puppy.

It’s really worrying the amount of posters who aren’t aware that puppies bite and mouth.
I hope none of them ever buy puppies!
Stick to goldfish.

Not an expert at all, but puppies are excitable and nippy and easily revved up by an equally excitable toddler. It sounds like normal predictable behaviour. I wouldn't worry that your pup has behavioural issues just yet, but I would not leave the two together without supervision for even a second.

I’m not sure I would call it nipping exactly (would that not leave a mark?) but certainly the jumping up is a concern as it knocks her over, and DD could easily get hurt on the ground. Puppy is now responding really well to “watch me” for both DH and me, breaking off the chase. It will require constant supervision or separation for a good while more though as DD is just determined to get the puppy chasing after her whatever opportunity she can.
On a related note, for those into training, is there much difference between training “watch me” and “leave it”? Do I need to be training leave it if watch me results in the dog breaking their attention from what they’re doing and turning to me?

Nibbley is probably a better description.

On a related note, for those into training, is there much difference between training “watch me” and “leave it”? Do I need to be training leave it if watch me results in the dog breaking their attention from what they’re doing and turning to me?

I use leave it mostly for things ddog is sniffing at that she shouldn't be ie something dead and/or rotting on a walk, another dogs ball or when dd has left food in her reach and I can see she's tempted. I don't require her to look at me I just want her to ignore it and move on. I'd say watch me is a different command but it's obviously your choice of you want/need it.

I agree with @cocoloco987 - they are two different command, both useful.

The most important thing is to be clear and consistent. Only reward for the behaviour you want, not the behaviour that is almost right - it's not encouraging them to get it right, it's telling them that what they did WAS right.

So, for example, if the dog is about to grab a biscuit out of the toddlers hand (and, yes, the toddler shouldn't have a biscuit near the dog!) and you want to stop it - you shout "watch me" and the dog glances at you long enough for you to scoop up the toddler - you don't say "good dog" because they haven't focused on you. It's easy to confuse a dog by praising - my very good trainer had to train me out of saying "good dog" as encouragement - "catsrus you're confusing the dog again!"

In that scenario saying "leave it" and getting the same behaviour WOULD get praise.

One major problem is getting everyone in the household on board using the right commands. Eg People saying "get down" when they mean "off"

I've had babies, toddlers and puppies. My dogs were retrievers, so big and bouncy. If your dog is fundamentally nice then you just need to supervise - and separate when you can't, especially if food is around. I did find the dogs to be very efficient hoovers around high chairs though