Puppy targeting toddler

[Puppalicious]

I strongly suspect I will get my arse handed to me for being a fool - I must be a masochist. But I need advice. My 4 month old rough collie puppy has over the last few days started to seriously target my 19 month old. It’s clearly herding behaviour, but she’s leaping at her with mouth open, knocking her over, nibbling at her arms. It’s not directed at anyone else, not my 5 or 9 yo. Today when I was upstairs with a relative looking after them all downstairs, the puppy apparently targeted her repeatedly, jumping on her and my LO now has a big scratch near her eye.
Up to now, the puppy has been lovely - her sweet and friendly temperament has been much complimented. Clearly she sees LO as a litter mate - and LO will, if we take our eyes off her at all, will run around her to entice a chase. Yes, we were stupid to get a puppy with a toddler. But it’s done now. Is this situation salvageable or do we need to return puppy to breeder before LO gets injured and a good puppy gets ruined? The kids will be devastated if she goes and I will be deeply ashamed. But it would be worse if my LO suffers a bad facial injury. I have emailed a trainer/behaviourist but she has no appointments until end June. Should I see if we can make progress to solve this in the meantime but wait for the behaviourists input?

Collies are not family pets , they need a job , either farming or agility. I think you have got a totally unsuitable breed of dog. I would return to breeder although I'm a bit as to why the breeder sold you the dog in the first place.

Young puppies really don't need lots of exercise - how long were the walks and how much sleep had she had that day?

Puppies need between 18-20 hours of sleep in a 24 hour period, otherwise they get daft, overtired and silly a bit like toddlers

Mine is three now and is still prone to acting like an idiot if he needs a nap

Sounds like entirely normal puppy behaviour. Puppies and toddlers tend not to be a good combination and you have no choice but separate.
If you genuinely can't separate them and give time to teaching your puppy alternative behaviours and training then this is probably not for you.

@Indoctro, it’s not a border collie, it’s a rough collie. As a sheep farmers daughter who had a border collie as a teenager, believe me, you wouldn’t find many (any) rough collies herding sheep. She comes from show stock.
@cupsofcoffee, she had a lot of exercise, 2 bits of 25 and 45 mins in a park, (she wasn’t walking for all the second but was out being stimulated) , the first of which involved a lot of puppy playing. I wasn’t expecting my relative to then also bring her dog around.

It sounds like completely normal puppy behaviour and a lot of previous answers sound like they never had a pup or met a rough collie! For a start they're really not like border collies.

Try and separate them, as a breed they love children so I'm not surprised your pup is trying to play with your toddler. She doesn't think she's a littermate, just loves children and doesn't know how to play appropriately!

Keep them separate and spend lots of time training your dog as they're a clever breed who thrive on human interaction. I really wouldn't return the pup but it's going to be hard for a while whilst your toddler grows (it would be with any puppy!).

And just to repeat please ignore all the poor border collie advice..roughs are more like companion dogs than sheep dogs!

Have you got a crate? I'd make sure the puppy has somewhere safe to go away from toddler and also if you have to do something out of the room or need to know there's a safe place for puppy you can use it. I'm sure that with time you can sort this out.

Sounds like you over stimulated the puppy yesterday and she was over tired to be honest. Ours is like that as she doesn’t know how to wind down or relax so we have to help her by putting her in her crate in a quiet room to calm down/sleep. They are like babies.
Having had a rough collie before it sounds perfectly normal. We had a lab when my youngest was the same age as yours and she did the same. They just need to learn.

Yes, keep them separate, even when nipping to the loo. Your relative should have taken one or the other in to the loo with them. Or otherwise made one or the other inaccessible. I presume their dog was also in the mix whilst they were in the loo?

I'd head over to the dog training advice and support group on Facebook. They have so many fantastic resources and specifically have one on puppies and children. If you cant find what you're looking for in the guides then you can post what you need help with and a behaviourist will come back to you

It takes a fleeting fraction of a second for a child to be scarred for life or worse.

Get rid of this dog......do not think any further on it........the dog has to go.

I am surprised there is any doubt in your mind.

All the crating and separating in the world will not allow for that fleeting moment when you lose concentration (as busy parents do), or your OH, or one of the children leave a door open and the two finish up together.

The puppy is behaving like a puppy; your toddler is behaving like a toddler. You simply have to decide which is more important.

Your child is in danger. You must act.

Thanks all for your advice. We’re going to rearrange the pen so it’s back where it was by the door which will give her access to the garden while preventing DD from running out to join her (it was in direct sunlight when the days lengthened and she was barking at her crate and bowls when put in there - she’s still barking at them now which is why she’s maybe not in the pen as much as she should be so we’ll remove them, and let her into a cooler room/garden if it’s sunny/warm). We also need to secure it more as it’s just an old Aldi baby pen that the kids can push past. Luckily she’s not a dog that needs to be on top of us all the time so as long as she can see us and has enough space she should hopefully be happy enough being behind gates a bit. I’ll try to get DH to use “watch me” rather than “no” (the latter is useless) and the trainer/behaviourist can do a phone consult and meet us on the week commencing 21 June. It is totally our fault for getting a puppy with such a small toddler but if we can solve this then we have to give it a good go. She has such a sweet temperament, she has the vets charmed and even my niece who is terrified of dogs can tolerate her. She’s nowhere near as energetic or jumpy/bitey as, for example, a friends golden retriever puppy - there’s just this big issue with DD! Which is totally our fault.

You need to get a handle on this, if the puppy sees your toddler as another puppy your puppy will try to get itself ahead of your toddler in the 'pack', one thing all puppies have to learn is that they are at the bottom of the pack.

And are you quite sure you can keep tabs on this? - that your 5 or 9 year old might not move something and toddler and dog finish up together?

Too big a risk.

@OytheBumbler

Your puppy is 4 months old-just a baby! She doesn't know how to behave yet so you need to train her in what you expect her behaviour to be.

This will be difficult because you have children to manage too but it's definitely doable.

Never leave them alone together and be firm in the behaviour you expect. She will learn but you need to give her a chance.

^ that To be honest it sounds like typical puppy behaviour, it’s just your child is small and cannot defend themselves. The dog will see this as a weakness and will take advantage.

If you commit to putting the time in, it’s salvageable. If you cannot 100% commit then return the dog, as the behaviour will escalate.
If you have never trained a dog before I’d seriously look at getting a behaviourist in to assess the behaviour (dog is still young) and ensure you exercise the dog- mentally and physically. Collies need ‘jobs’. They’re not lap dogs and in my opinion not always good around very young children.
You need to set boundaries and ‘own’ your child around the dog. Push the dog away and say no bite/no jump loudly and firmly.

I’ve got a Labrador and he was five when I had DD, his sheer size and strength meant we had to be firm with him. He was very excited and wanted to see this new, noisy thing in his home. You have to be consistent and you have to be present.
You can’t leave them alone.

Sashh dogs know humans are not puppies and all that pack stuff is discredited nonsense.

It's a rough collie pup, they love kids and want to play, like puppies do. They also use their mouths to explore the world, and can be quite mouthy pups..it's always going to be hard to manage with a toddler (I couldn't do it!)

Jesus Christ OP bet you didn't know you'd brought Cujo home instead of Lassie. Your child isn't in mortal danger, there's no such thing as pack theory and there's no point telling a dog no - it doesn't know what it means. You need to be able to redirect her to behaviour you do want rather than punish behaviour you don't want. Dog is jumping up - tell it to sit instead of pushing it away and saying no

Thanks all for your advice. @BagORats I agree “no” does not work! No further incidents today, we’ll keep the situation under close review. Once again when I was walking with her today someone commented on what a calm pup she is. I’m feeling more hopeful today that we can sort this, I just have to focus on not giving her the opportunity to reinforce the behaviour through training and separation.

Along with, as said previously about the puppy seeing the little one as having no boundaries, could it also be partially to do with teething. Our puppy was a nightmare while teething, going for clothing, arms and legs. Frozen broccoli stalks and carrots were a good help.

Perfectly normal for a rough collie puppy. Your child is too young but that's too late now. On the upside, she's 5 months old so it should get better fairly soon. Just don't leave them alone together and when the puppy starts bothering her, put them in seperate rooms (puppy safe room if you can't see the puppy). Get plently of pizzle/bully sticks in, mine went through loads at that age and they were a life saver. They'll end up being the best of friends, my 12 year old was a bit nervous around ours as a pup due to the puppy biting but it stopped after 6 months of age and they love each other.

@Indoctro

Collies are not family pets , they need a job , either farming or agility. I think you have got a totally unsuitable breed of dog. I would return to breeder although I'm a bit as to why the breeder sold you the dog in the first place.

Rubbish, it's not a border collie. They do however benefit from a mental stimulation like any dog. Rough collies are known for being great family pets.

What a fascinating thread this is - I am staggered at all these people who regard the danger to this poor infant as minimal and put the needs of the dog first.

The dog does not need behavioural training; it simply needs to go.

The child's well-being comes first.

@Mischance Why be on a dog forum if you clearly dislike them?

@Mischance

What a fascinating thread this is - I am staggered at all these people who regard the danger to this poor infant as minimal and put the needs of the dog first.

The dog does not need behavioural training; it simply needs to go.

The child's well-being comes first.

Rubbish, give the puppy a couple of months and it will be much better. The toddler and puppy just need to have their only interactions under proper supervision. Rough collies and children were made for each other.

Stacey gates over doorways. Segregate segregate segregate.... keep apart when they are jumpy or you need to leave the area to use toilet. Take your toddler with you to toilet if need be. It's not worth the risk of something happening.

Safety*