Told by the farmer to keep dog on a lead?

[mudstuck]

I was walking my dog through a field and the farmer came up on his tractor and complained that he had seen my dog off the lead. There are no sheep or livestock around, and I would always always put her on a lead if I there was any chance of encountering any livestock.I did raise the fact that the field was empty with him and he said there are young pheasants going about... I apologised and agreed to keep her on a lead in future. However on reflection I am wondering if he is in the right to ask that of us? My dog doesn't have a very high prey drive at all and lives happily with three house cats. I don't allow her to chase wildlife although her recall, even though it's good, is not 100% and we have had the very occasional chase of a squirrel or deer. She probably would chase a pheasant if she saw one running away but she would never catch it. What do you think? Like I said I am happy to keep her on a lead just for an easy life. I live close to the farmer and don't want the trouble/conflict. Just wondering who is in the right..

@mudstuck

Can someone please explain how a farmer is legally entitled to shot your dog just for being off the lead? When the dog has not threatened livestock?

It doesn't matter if it's legal if your dog is dead.

@mudstuck

So a farmer can shot a dog that's not chasing, worrying or attacking livestock? A dog that's just walking through an empty field with its owner? And the farmer would face no legal consequences because they own the land?

So next time the neighbours dog goes running through my open plan front garden I can shot him? Madness

A lot of people have pointed out that just because a farmer shouldn't shoot a dog walking in a field doesn't mean they won't. But you said yourself that your dog would probably chase a pheasant. So if you know your dog would chase a pheasant now you know about the pheasants why are you still arguing about it.

A dog doesn't need to catch an animal to be "guilty" of worrying it. Though I accept that legally released pheasants aren't livestock, thanks to the person who clarified that. But it would still be shitty behaviour to argue that as they're not legally livestock then you could potentially ignore the farmer's request. It's his livelihood and he will make money from the birds.

“Worrying livestock” is defined as
 Attacking Livestock,
or
 Chasing Livestock in such a way as
may reasonably be expected to cause it
injury or suffering or, in the case of
females, abortion or loss or diminution
in their produce.
The chase can fall short of actual
pursuit. A dog running amok amongst
livestock so as to cause alarm has been
held to be “chasing” (Stephen v Milne
1960)
The dog need not directly cause the
Injury. The definition has been held to
include foals injuring themselves after
being barked at (Campbell v Wilkinson
(1909)), and poultry being so shocked
as to be unable to lay eggs

If this happened to your dog would you really care about what happened to the farmer’s license afterwards?

@mudstuck
The law is dogs must be on a lead in open access areas of Scotland due to ground nesting birds at this time of year.

On Open Access land and at the coast, you must put your dog on a lead around livestock. Between 1 March and 31 July, you must have your dog on a lead on Open Access land, even if there is no livestock on the land. These are legal requirements.

Might be an idea to ensure you are aware of your legal requirements before heading off to the countryside if you've not been brought up there. It's an easy mistake to make by assuming that dogs are OK loose, however we country folk are getting a tad fed up with all the new-to-dog owners particularly from towns that aren't aware of the rules, so I'm sorry people have been blunt with you.

Likewise for all the English that think Right to Roam applies in any field, it doesn't. If I tell you that you cannot go through the hedge into my garden to go under my car port to get back to the road, it's not unfair of me to expect you to cross the stream go through 2 barbed wire fences and over a wooden fence, if that was the way you came!
So don't whinge about the barbed wire it's to keep cattle in not public out! (Saturday's incident, crossing fields where there are no public footpaths trying to get back to the road)

This thread is getting ridiculous. Farmers cannot simply shoot dogs on sight, they have to be doing harm, like worrying or attacking livestock. Police do take a dim view of anyone with a shotgun licence they feel is trigger happy and farmers don't want to lose their licenses. Also, most farmers DO NOT WANT to shoot dogs! They would rather shoot the owners for being irresponsible twats. We have a neighbour (who, ironically, calls herself a farmer) who has a very animal-aggressive dog who is never on the lead and rarely in her sight. It has caused all sorts of problems, even attacking horse riders on the road. No one has reported her yet because we don't want the animal to suffer for the owner being a twat. One more attack and I will do it. But people's patience overall with dog owners has been stretched very thin over lock down. There are a lot of twats out there that now have untrained dogs, all going for country walks. There are going to be clashes. You did the right thing to put your dog on the lead, OP, I hope there are places nearby where he can run without bothering anyone.

Many farmers devote part of their land as pheasant shoots. unless you are part of that fraternity you might not know that the land is used to shoot pheasants on. if your dog is worrying pheasants and the farmer can prove that they are livestock then he/she is indeed within their rights to shoot your dog. without warning. farm land is not a garden. its land used for livestock or crops. gardens generally arent. Just yesterday there was a post about some alpacas on a coastal path having been attacked by an off lead dog. i own farmland and we have livestock on it most of the time. a dead lamb has lost the farmer £60 - £80 plus the stress effect on the other animals (meaning some die at a later point) is massive.

Mudstuck, I think you are determined that you will be in the right here. All I would say is the farmer made a reasonable request.

@sunflowersandbuttercups
If it ain't legal I'd be calling the police and doing everything I could to ensure a prosecution for criminal damage, cruelty, ect. Surely most dog owned would take the same approach seeing how we all love our dogs.

Keep your dog on the lead, the farmer was right.

@mudstuck

I'll ask again. Are you aware of nesting season and the very strong recommendation given to dog owners to keep their dogs on short leads during this time? Even in woodland, at the coast, farmland etc?

At this time, your right to the land and the farmer have nothing to do with it really. Your dog should be on a lead.

Outside of this, your dog need to be under control on farmland (livestock on sight or no). As you cannot guarantee that then it needs to be on a lead.

We have every right to walk there

A right to walk there doesn’t meant you can disregard the land owner’s reasonable requests or basic etiquette...

YABU.

I'm a farmer. This week I've asked 4 people to put their dogs on leads as they go up our farm drive.
I've been shouted at and sworn at. Only 1 person said yes of course.

The shouters and swearers didn't even give me a chance to explain they were about to walk past a paddock with very jumpy young cows in. Cows that can barge through a fence/hedge if something like say, a dog, starts to worry them.

I'm all for people being able to enjoy the countryside but please have respect for the environment you are in.

You were on the farmers land. Your dog should have been on a lead. It wasn't, he politely explained why and you are still doubting it.

This thread is getting ridiculous. Farmers cannot simply shoot dogs on sight, they have to be doing harm, like worrying or attacking livestock.

This is true, but it won't bring your dog back if it's been shot dead by a farmer. And I suspect that it would be very hard to argue that your dog wasn't being a pest - after all, unless there are witnesses or CCTV, it's just your word agains the farmers'.

Being right won't stop your dog from being dead, so why would you take the risk?

@themalamander

No I wasn't aware. I am now. Like I said I don't allow her to chase wildlife but no dog is 100%.

We live on farmland where there are sheep for much of the year. I've seen three sheep get brutally killed by dogs - on each occasion the owners were in total shock as their dogs had 'never done anything like that before'. So if you don't like the farmers rules please don't go on his land.

You only need to google "farmer shoots dog in field" to find numerous stories of family pets being shot dead, owners often claiming "rightly or wrongly) that there weren't any sheep/livestock in sight.: Why risk it?

My first German Shepherd was shot by a farmer 5 years ago for worrying his flock.

My dog had escaped from me and was bounding around in his fields. However, I was in the field behind her, shouting at the top of my voice and trying my best to catch up with her - the farmer must have heard me.

He made no attempt to catch or stop my dog, he made no attempt to allow me to catch my dog. When I arrived she was dead (shot three times) and there wasn't a sheep in sight!

He told me she had been chasing his sheep and therefore he had a right to shoot her.

I will never know whether she was worrying his livestock.

no a farmer can't just shoot a dog for being off lead they have to be worrying or chasing livestock the farmer doesn't have to wait until it kills a sheep just running amongst them is a good enouggh reason

however pheasants are not livestock, however they along with other birds are ground nesting and because of this your dog should have been on the lead or at heel (Scotland access code) your dog doesn't appear to have been either the farmer asked you to put your dog on lead, according to your OP he made no comment about shooting just that it needed to be on lead because of the birds he was right
ignorance of law / code etc is not a defence
all he asked was for you to put dog on lead ( within his rights) you put dog on lead ( sensible) you wondered about it as no livestock you were unaware of rules about nesting birds you are no longer unaware, so next time being a sensible person you will keep dog on lead on open land until end of July

That thing about the german shepherd was a copy and paste btw, not my story/dog.

[quote mudstuck]@sunflowersandbuttercups
If it ain't legal I'd be calling the police and doing everything I could to ensure a prosecution for criminal damage, cruelty, ect. Surely most dog owned would take the same approach seeing how we all love our dogs. [/quote]
I wouldn't put my dogs' life at risk in the first place.

Being "right" won't bring your dog back. I'd rather my dog stayed alive and healthy and if that means keeping him on a lead on farmland, then that's what I'll do. It's no hardship to me - there are plenty of other places I can let him off to run safely.

But as PP have said, if you're in Scotland, your dog should legally be on the lead at this time of year anyway, so you I doubt you'd win your case.

Please please keep your dog on a lead. This is the time of year when ground nesting birds are laying. Also there are young leverets around that are extremely nervous and the presence of a running by dog, however nice natured, is incredibly disturbing. Please please have some sympathy for wildlife and the efforts of those conservationists who are trying so hard to restore some sort of balance to British wildlife.

As ted hastings would say "dear god!"

Sorry OP but I think you are being unreasonable, it’s his land and as you’ve stated, his recall isn’t 100%, so he should stay on an extension lead.
There’s been so many dog attacks on wildlife in recent years, it’s not worth the risk.

So what your saying is many farmers are absolute bastards who will shoot a family pet even if it's done nothing wrong? And you want me to respect these people?

These people who believe they are above the law...

Though I accept that legally released pheasants aren't livestock, thanks to the person who clarified that. I didn't see who said that but I think they were incorrect, the guidance has been changed for about a decade or so, or that it is ne of those grey areas. If the farmer had just released those birds in preparation for a shooting season - though it is too early in the year for that, so it's a moot point.

Many counties and updated country codes include flushing birds in their advice to farmers and walker alike.

This is just the first I found, my area is a little more robust about it

documents.hants.gov.uk/countryside/dogsonyourland.pdf