Show line border collies

[Purpleswans]

Anyone have a show line border collie rather than a working line ?

What do you need to know?

Just wondered what they are like in comparison to working lines ?

I would tread carefully and fully research the breeder.

They will still be herdy, and have the needs of a working collie. Some have more nervy temperaments as bred for looks and not temperaments.

A working dog has to have an off switch and be calm to work not so with a show line.

There is also a lot of epilepsy in some lines so do research back several generations.

I think people assume show lines will be easier, in my experience it is not the case.

Thank you that’s interesting

Absolutely not!

When you take a working breed, and I’m not just referring to border collies here, and you try and take out the working instinct, in my opinion you change the character of the dog, the confirmation of the dog and can introduce behavioural problems that weren’t there before.

For example, German Shepherd dogs have become very neurotic overall and fearful when they used to be a very level headed, stable breed.
When you compare German Shepherd dogs working with the police to German Shepherds bred for show the difference is looks is stark and depressing.

In Golden Retrievers and Cocker spaniels severe resource guarding is a very well known problem and it’s more commonly seen in the show lines.
Again, when you compare show line and working line the appearance is different enough for some people to not even recognise them as the correct breed.

With collies specifically, they are, thank god, still largely bred for working but you can already see the looks divide appearing.
Show border collies have a coat that I would argue is too dense and long to be suitable for working.
It isn’t a coincidence that a fair number of working border collies are smooth coated.

The shows are more heavy set too, shorter legged, more blocky shaped heads.

Epilepsy is a problem as mentioned, there is another disease, Neuronal Ceroid lipofucsinosis (I don’t think spelt correctly though) that is almost exclusively seen only in show bred border collies.
No doubt because when you breed to a strict ‘look’ and use a small number of top winning dogs to father hundreds, if not thousands of pups you decrease the gene pool and introduce disease.
Working line dogs often benefit from much larger gene pools, it’s not a coincidence that dogs like working border collies, working jack russels and working lurchers are amongst the healthiest breeds.

With the exception of dog fighting breeds, I don’t believe working dogs should ever be intentionally bred with a view to losing their working ability.
It is integral to what makes that breed.
If you don’t feel you can cope with the expected traits of a particular breed then pick a different one, don’t try and breed out their working ability.

The Kennel Club is bad news for dogs.
No valuable working dog was ever improved by the actions of the Kennel Club.
Not in looks, not in temperament and not in health.

@BigWolfLittleWolf

I totally agree with you about the Kennel Club. I also personally think that a 'Club' who decides that a dog is not fit for its register because it doesn't come up to its ludicrous expectations is not one I would want my Border Collie to grace with his illustrious presence. My BC is a pure bred working collie. It does not need to be on a fancy register for me to know this.

The Kennel Club is bad news for dogs. No valuable working dog was ever improved by the actions of the Kennel Club. Not in looks, not in temperament and not in health.

200% agree. I'm 63 years old. Born to work border collies; learned to walk clinging on to one, and never been without at least one working dog - not all herders, but all workers. Wouldn't have a show dog given me, and wouldn't touch the Kennel Club with a disinfected barge pole. ISDS all the way for me. ISDS registration is not about looks, purely about lines bred for intelligence and working capacity - in other words, what a border collie is supposed to be. Doesn't matter what my dog looks like. Although, to be fair, he is the most utterly handsome blue merle male in the universe ....

ISDS register is way more important for collies than KC. Same dna and registered with KC bevomes a border collie if not registered is a working sheepdog!

Disagree about most working collie being short coated though. Although not the thick coat of a show dog.

The show collies are getting such short noses now that they are beginning to look like spaniels!

I have a show bred border collie, I absolutely love her. I got her because I love collies, and do agility, but have found the show lines to have a much stabler temperament and make a better ‘pet’.

Her temperament is incredible BUT that is not necessarily true of all show collies at all - I found a breeder who’s dogs have incredible temperaments. Personally I’d really avoid show breeders who breed lots of colours - I find this is often at the expense of temperament.

Health wise, personally I’ve never found a working lines breeder that DNA tests, hip scores, eye tests etc. I’m sure they exist but I’ve never found one and it is an absolute requirement for me that my dogs’ parents have these tests. The breeder I used was absolutely hot on health issues and knows her lines inside out.

Temperament- she’s not a low energy dog by any stretch of the imagination, but she’s not got the ‘edge’ that some collies have, she’s as soft as butter. She’s a calm, friendly, happy girl who absolutely loves life. She’s a dog you can take anywhere and I do think being show lines takes the ‘edge’ off. She’s still super smart - she’s an agility dog and also likes doing scentwork and swimming. She is walked for about an hour a day off lead, and then has some sort of mental stimulation most days, but other than that she’s happy playing in the house and chilling out. Obviously at weekends etc we might go on longer walks, we did 7 miles today and she loved it, but she’s not constantly on the go and absolutely doesn’t need hours of walking - but then I don’t think any collie should be walked for hours.

She does still have some of the collie traits - we worked hard to avoid her looking at cars as I was conscious this would become chasing. She also ‘herds’ my other dog if given the chance. But that’s what makes her a collie.

If you wanted a collie just because you like how they look, then don’t get a show collie, because they’re still a collie in a pretty coat. They still need something to do, and do have the drive to work built in. They’re also sensitive dogs - it’s easy for them to develop bad habits and issues, as with any smart breed. But I totally love her and would have another in a heart beat. Just spend time finding a good breeder, who doesn’t churn out pretty puppies, and priorities health and temperament.

It’s worth asking about show lines on the FB border collie groups - there’s some good advice on there.

Here she is!

Disagree about most working collie being short coated though. Although not the thick coat of a show dog
Ah, but I didn’t say most!
I said a fair number of working collies are short (smooth) coated.
I have a rough coated worker and her coat is nothing like the shows.
It’s long but thin if that makes sense.
Only modest feathers, not much undercoat.

Definitely not the case that show line border collies are guaranteed to be calmer, at the end of the day all of these dogs are still extremely close to the genetics that suits them for a life of focused work on the relatively unchanging environment of the farm, but can make busy family life with cars, strange dogs etc hard for them.

The exercise thing is a myth, collies can be physically conditioned to do large amounts of exercise but they don't need hours of unstructured free running a day - they benefit from clear expectations, being kindly trained what the right behaviours are, being able to exercise self control and use their brains. Working stock requires massive amounts of self control as well as using intuition, if you can find a 'job' for a collie which taps into this it's good for them irrespective of working or show lines.

Thanks, appreciate the replies

That’s a good point @ferretface.

I have a Welsh sheepdog (red and white) with a lovely if sometimes skittish temperament. We do as much as we can to keep her busy but she does really need a job. Has anyone got some tips for jobs for her?

She’s inclined to “assist” me in everything. I get out of bed, she leads me to the loo. I grab my towel, she leads me to the shower. I take laundry out of the machine, she entices me to the washing line with happy circles. She’s love a proper job.

I do agility and scentwork with mine, both great fun.

Is there a mix of show dogs and working dogs at agility? And what is scentwork?

I've only had working collies (Highlands, so they are everywhere). I have never heard of anyone local with a 'show' collie, but it makes me very sad to think they exist. Collies are healthy dogs with few congenital problems compared to other pedigrees, precisely because they have not been bred for what they look like. Instead, people value their character.

Please get a working collie OP, and help keep this amazing breed healthy.

I had no idea it was so controversial. I contacted the border collie club of Scotland who said to go through kennel club assured breeder list. But it seems this is the only breed that you actually shouldn’t do that?

Imo, there’s no ‘job’ comparable to herding. It just isn’t there.
Brain games and training is just that.
Brain games and training, it’s good for beating boredom, improving a bond, keeping the mind active etc but it is not, imo anyway, a substitute or comparable as a job to herding.

But I don’t feel collies need to be herding in order to be happy mind, I just don’t feel that the activities stated as alternatives are in any way comparable.

And I agree feisty, I too, am gutted they exist.
As with all once fine working dogs, it is the beginning of the end.

I contacted the border collie club of Scotland who said to go through kennel club assured breeder list
😱😱😱😱
If you want a registered border collie you go for ISDS (international sheepdog society)

The Kennel Club is NEVER where you look for a working breed of dog!
They wouldn’t know a properly bred working dog (of any breed) if it turned and bit them on the arse!

Imo, there’s no ‘job’ comparable to herding. It just isn’t there
Brain games and training is just that
Brain games and training, it’s good for beating boredom, improving a bond, keeping the mind active etc but it is not, imo anyway, a substitute or comparable as a job to herding.

I may be misunderstanding your comments. Imo some collies are rubbish at herding and just dont get it and dont want to work sheep However they are still highly intelligent dogs who love to "problem solve" .

One of mine has done all they can to avoid the sheep but he is an ace search and rescue dog. He needs to work and be thinking.

I may be misunderstanding your comments. Imo some collies are rubbish at herding and just dont get it and dont want to work sheep However they are still highly intelligent dogs who love to "problem solve"
I think so.
I agree with you that not all collies will be good sheepdogs.

All I meant was that herding is such a unique skill there aren’t any activities that replicate it. Except maybe treiball but that doesn’t seem at all popular in the UK.

That’s not to say that dogs that don’t herd are unfulfilled or unhappy or anything.
Just that so called alternatives to herding eg agility, flyball, scentwork etc aren’t.
They are great activities for lots of dogs but they aren’t similar to herding.
That’s all I meant.

Oh ok I see what you mean Yep herding is pretty unique. There is a great herding game by Kay Laurence that all my herders love so I feel that is quite a good substitute for some collies.

Totally agree about agility not being a substitute for herding. On paper it should be the worse thing possible for collies - all that movement and running with the owner not opposite them. I guess that is why it is fine for some collies and over stimulating for others.

@FeistySheep

I've only had working collies (Highlands, so they are everywhere). I have never heard of anyone local with a 'show' collie, but it makes me very sad to think they exist. Collies are healthy dogs with few congenital problems compared to other pedigrees, precisely because they have not been bred for what they look like. Instead, people value their character.

Please get a working collie OP, and help keep this amazing breed healthy.

Getting a working border collie is not all you need to do to guarantee a healthy dog - I’ve never found a working lines breeder that health tests, hips scores etc. Simply breeding for ‘character’ does nothing if a dog is hiding dodgy hips or a carrier for CEA.

My show collie is beautifully healthy, with no congenital issues at all, and I’m very happy she exists.

I agree that agility, scentwork etc don’t replace herding - I was just saying what I do with mine to keep her busy, things she enjoys. Scentwork involves training a dog to locate certain scents in different places, eg amongst boxes and bags, on a vehicle, along a wall etc. Great mental stimulation.

@Purpleswans

Is there a mix of show dogs and working dogs at agility? And what is scentwork?

All sorts of different dogs dog agility, yes working and show collies, but also specifically bred-for-agility collies, rescue collies, and all sorts of collies in between haha