Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

The doghouse

If you're worried about your pet's health, please speak to a vet or qualified professional.

Show line border collies

34 replies

Purpleswans · 01/04/2021 18:20

Anyone have a show line border collie rather than a working line ?

OP posts:
BigWolfLittleWolf · 03/04/2021 22:02

Getting a working border collie is not all you need to do to guarantee a healthy dog - I’ve never found a working lines breeder that health tests, hips scores etc. Simply breeding for ‘character’ does nothing if a dog is hiding dodgy hips or a carrier for CEA
I do agree with you that working breeders rarely utilise health tests and yes you can get workers with CEA, hip dysplasia, PRA etc.

However; first I would say that the majority of show kennel club breeders do not health test either.

Second; all ISDS registered dogs do have to have clear eye test results in order to be registered.
In contrast, health tests under the Kennel Club are a recommendation, not a requirement.

Third; do you not find it a little odd that out of all the hundreds of pedigree dogs the healthiest ones are consistently the working jack Russell’s, the working border collies and the working lurchers and greyhounds...?

Working dogs typically have very, very low levels of inbreeding and although it is certainly possible to get inherited diseases, you would be likely to notice things like poor hips as it would negatively impact working ability!

SkeletonSkins · 03/04/2021 22:53

It hasn’t been my experience at all that working breeds are the healthiest - in my little agility bubble I’ve only heard of CEA litters for example in working lines, and have many friends who’s collies from farms have sadly got HD. But then I don’t know any reputable show breeders who don’t health test - KC yes, but not proper show breeders, so perhaps I just move in different circles.

SkeletonSkins · 03/04/2021 22:55

To clarify I think the best bred collie is one from health tested lines, from parents with excellent temperaments, whether that be show or farm. I think both can be great - I just don’t like the way all show collies are dismissed as ‘the worst thing that can happen to the breed’.

BigWolfLittleWolf · 04/04/2021 09:52

It hasn’t been my experience at all that working breeds are the healthiest - in my little agility bubble I’ve only heard of CEA litters for example in working lines, and have many friends who’s collies from farms have sadly got HD
I am assuming the CEA collies you are referring to are farm bred, unregistered collies?

Because ISDS registration requires both parents to have clear eye test results.
Any ISDS puppy should therefore be guaranteed clear of CEA and/or PRA as they should be clear by parentage.

All decent breeders of medium sized dogs up should be hip screening.
It is a unfortunate that breeders of both shows and pets and workers across all breeds either don’t or do then breed anyway when the scores aren’t great.

I would say too though, that hip dysplasia is a very tricky disease.
It’s largely environmental as well genetic.
One of the biggest risk factors is too much climbing up stairs, running, jumping etc before the growth plates are formed.
Your affected dogs are agility dogs.
I would argue that possibly their owners introduced them too young and if they hadn’t maybe those dogs would not be showing signs of dysplasia.

I just don’t like the way all show collies are dismissed as ‘the worst thing that can happen to the breed’
If we look at other working breeds though that the Kennel Club has got his hands on, it doesn’t look great....

Dobermanns were once valued working dogs.
Now, it is exceedingly difficult to find good quality working Dobermann’s in the UK and the breed is in a terrible state health wise with many dying very young of heart problems.
I forget the specific issue, it may be HCM, I can’t remember.
It is the view of some that inherited heart problems now affect so many Dobermanns that the problem can no longer be fixed within the breed.
To get rid of the heart problem you’d have to outcross to another breed, which the Kennel Club won’t allow.

German Shepherds used to be another valued working dog, their temperaments were usually very stable and confident and level headed.
Look at them now.
The vast majority of Germans shepherds now are really neurotic, nervous and couldn’t work if their life depended on it.
As for their health and conformation.
Well.
You can see just from watching a show German Shepherd walk the level of deformity and they are riddled with serious health problems.

Saint Bernards were once rescue dogs, can you imagine a Saint Bernard now having the agility and stamina to rescue someone in the mountains?!
Most Saint Bernards now struggle to manage even an hour’s walk!

Basset hounds!
Look what has happened to that once majestic working hunting hound!
And worse, like the Saint Bernard, the original working Basset Hound is as good as extinct.

Sooner or later the show bred border collie will mean the breed goes one of two ways.

Either you will get a severe split of work and show, as we have currently with Cocker spaniels and Golden/Labrador retrievers where the show version is so different in looks they might as well be a different breed, the temperament will be different as the herding instinct will be reduced and changed and most likely, they will start to be affected with more inherited diseases than they are currently as breeding to a specific ‘look’ will mean a reduced gene pool and having one or two top champion show winning studs fathering hundreds, if not thousands of puppies, the gene pool will reduce even further.

Or, they will go the way of the basset.
The show line will be the new ‘normal’ and working bred border collies will be a dog never seen except on working sheep farms.

FeistySheep · 04/04/2021 10:38

@Skeletonskins I should clarify...
I'm not an expert on show collies, but I don't think they've been in existence very long? The issues with breeding any dog for looks is that over many generations those chosen traits become exaggerated and the dogs develop problems (such as breeds with snouts so short they can't breathe properly, or hips so small they can't give birth naturally). This has probably not happened to show collies yet, but it will, if people continue to breed them for looks. They'll be inbred and develop health issues accordingly.

I'm not saying your dog is unhealthy! I'm saying that if people carry on inbreeding dogs just because they think their appearance is more important than FUTURE generations' health, show collies are going the same way as some other once lovely breeds.

PollyRoulson · 04/04/2021 11:20

I hope that border collies will be different from the breeds that Bigwolf used as an example for the reason that collies are still worked a lot.

Even the agility collies that are breed for agility are breed for purpose and health (although you could argue they are getting pretty small in some cases) but many collies are working dogs.

Health testing is available for most working collies but you also have the breeders who just breed for money as in any breed. Again do your homework look for ISDS lines which will be health tested. Also it is pretty easy to trace collies from the same breeding lines to see how they are.

SkeletonSkins · 04/04/2021 16:42

Hm yeah I’d agree that I feel collies might be a little different as I think most show breeders I know of still work towards a moderate, healthy dog, as that’s what the breed standard says. We will have to agree to disagree here I think as I do feel that for someone wanting to own a collie and not work sheep, a show lines one is a good option. It’s absolutely not the case that there’s a limited gene pool - please don’t just assume that. BCs are one of the most popular breeds in the show ring, there’s absolutely tons of them and my girl has a really low % inbreeding coefficient, which is easily checked on the KC website.

I have to say though, the dogs I know with HD absolutely did not develop it due to over exercise or because of accessing agility too early - trust me, agility people absolutely know not to start before the dog is fully mature. Sadly the dogs I know never made it to the agility ring, their hips presented themselves from a young age.

I think what I’m saying is there’s this assumption that KC show breeders don’t care about the breed, or are all inbreeding to get an extreme look, and this is absolutely not the case. I can get on board if the key argument is a worry about a split in the breed between working and show lines, that’s a fair concern. But this idea that all show collies are unhealthy, inbred (or guaranteed to become that way in generations to come) etc is just wrong, and unless you’ve actually spoken to breeders and seen how hard they work to develop the breed and the health of their dogs, I don’t think it’s fair to say. Most of the assumptions in this thread abojt show collies seem to be based on what’s happened with other breeds, without any real reference to what the majority of show breeders breed.

BigWolfLittleWolf · 04/04/2021 17:31

Hm yeah I’d agree that I feel collies might be a little different as I think most show breeders I know of still work towards a moderate, healthy dog AS THAT’S WHAT THE BREED STANDARD SAYS
And that end quote in capitals is precisely the problem.
‘Because that is what the breed standard says’
So what you are really saying, is show breeders breed a moderate dog because that fits the (current) standard and will win them medals.
Not because that is what is best for the dog.
But because that is what wins.

So if the breed standard called for say, a brachycephalic nose, would the breeders them breed for that?
Despite knowing it is to the detriment of the dog?
Because it is what the ‘breed standard calls for’...?

Notice that as Polly said, show collies with shorter noses are already getting rewarded in the ring so it isn’t necessarily as ludicrous as it first sounds.

Quite aside from the fact that it is absolutely preposterous for an organisation that doesn’t work sheepdogs or hunt with hounds or gundogs or keep livestock guardians or train police dogs or work terriers to have the absolute nerve to decide what makes the perfect example of these breeds.
The perfect example of any working dog is a healthy dog with the correct temperament and stamina and build to do the job it was bred to do!
Looks don’t come into it.

It’s absolutely not the case that there’s a limited gene pool
Yet..
Should a male Border collie win Crufts you can bet that dog will go on to father many hundreds, if not thousands of litters.
That, in addition to the fact that breeding for a certain look means most breeders will ‘line breed’ in order to fix the traits that win in the ring mean sooner or later the gene pool will decrease.

BC are one of the most popular breeds in the show ring, there’s absolutely tons of them
That isn’t a good thing!

and my girl has a really low % inbreeding coefficient, which is easily checked on the KC website
Good but that isn’t the case for all.
I won’t name names, but I know of at least one show kennel with champions that has advertised ‘closely line bred’ (in bred!) litters as a selling point.

In breeding goes hand in hand with showing.
They want to fix certain aesthetic traits that win in the ring and inbreeding is the way to do that.
Breeding for aesthetics, in any breed is never a good thing.

FeistySheep · 04/04/2021 18:11

Yes! Everything BigWolfLittleWolf said.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page