Is it time that all dogs were kept on lead in public places (warning - contains sad news about the seal on the Thames)

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there's a very sad story about Freddie the seal being attacked and unfortunately having to be put to sleep. he was attacked by an off lead dog walking on the Thames path. It also wasn't the first attack - he had been 'bothered' by other dogs earlier in the week www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-56489147

I've walked along that path with my dog and it's extremely busy. Loads of bikes, small children, ducks, geese, swans. I have never felt it's safe to have a dog off lead in that environment, no matter how good you think their recall is.

I just wonder whether we are now at the point where dogs should be walked on lead in public places. I'm a dog owner myself and don't have a problem with it. I do know a lot of people who have dogs who have far worse recall than ours who allow them off lead when they are walked.

This story has really saddened me - I don't know if it's the picture of the seal with its sad eyes that's doing it or the fact that he travelled so far and seemed to have finally found somewhere that he was happy!

I am fortunate in that I live right next to/surrounded by a large forest on the edge of London. My dog has a prey drive so I have to keep her on a lead in areas where I know there are likely to be fallow deer or by lakes (water birds). Otherwise, if I judge it safe enough, I will let her run free (she has pretty good recall), whilst keeping a watchful eye on other dogs/people, etc. If she doesn't get any off lead time, she is restless, rather bored and a bit naughty. It is definitely her favourite thing. Unfortunately though, especially since lockdown dogs/puppies became a thing, I often see people walking their dogs off lead round the ponds/lakes and doing absolutely nothing to prevent their dogs from going after the ducks. We have also had dog-owners let their dog off lead and not risk assess the situation (closeness to roads as well as wildlife that may be nearby), so every year quite a few dogs end up chasing a fox/a deer/another dog across a busy road and being killed. I wish people were more responsible.

In that particular area, that dog should not have been off lead.

From the pictures I’ve seen where the woman has gone over and stood there while others try and get her dog off the seal, she is holding the lead which is wrapped around her waist and it all looks perfectly in tact.

I see the police are now looking for her, she should go and hand herself in at the nearest police station. Idiot.

I very much doubt all of the attacks from dogs are caused by broken leads or the dog escaping. This would be a rare occurrance compared to the number of dogs off lead. Also it is the owners responsibility to have a lead appropriate to the dogs strength, and check that it is in working order to minimise this risk

I agree, but my point is that a lead alone isn't fool-proof. Leads, like anything, can break. Owners can slip or fall and lose their grip on the lead. Dogs can also still fight and attack on the lead.

Owners need to be in control - leads are a great way to help with that, but many dogs are actually calmer and better behaved off their leads than they are on.

Seals are very slow moving, cumbersome creatures. They don't have the reaction time to get away from a dog running at them. What a sad situation. I didn't know there were seals in the Thames though.

I'm lucky and live in country side and Dog is always off lead but if I see another dog sheep etc he always goes back On lead. He is young and unreliable with other dogs Too friendly!!

In a public park or Road or Town he is always on a lead as well. I couldn't trust him to not run up to a toddler or the road.

@sunflowersandbuttercups

From what I've seen/read - didn't the owner have the dog on a lead but the lead snapped?

Even if you keep your dog on a lead, it's not a foolproof means of protection - you could trip and drop the lead, the dog could pull it out of your hand, the dog could slip a collar or, as happened to me last week, a D-ring failed and the leash came unclipped from the collar.

I agree that dogs should be on lead in busy areas and by roads, or around livestock etc., but a lead slipping/snapping/breaking can happen to anyone.

Sorry for the Daily Mail link, but in this photo the lead is clearly still attached to the owner unsnapped: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9392831/Calls-owner-face-fine-heartbroken-animal-lovers-mourn-death-Freddie-seal.html

No I don't think it would be a good idea if we are talking about all public space. Not fair on the dogs.

Busy parks, fields with livestock you could make it law but good dog owners put the lead on in these situations anyway.

The lead does look intact. Appears to be a Patterdale type dog - and they have a well documented prey drive.

If (as reported) there were signs up and this idiot ignored them, then what makes you think the owner would have kept the dog on lead in any other circumstances? As ever, a rule about all dogs being on lead in public places would harm Doris and her shih tzu, while the likes of this woman would keep their dog off lead.

I know mine is not to be trusted around livestock so we avoid such areas (or use a lead if unavoidable) but I do object to the idea that all dogs should be on lead in all public areas regardless of how well trained they are.

On a side note, I once had a lead where the clip failed on a couple of occasions, without actually breaking (first time I thought I'd put it on wrong, second time I replaced it).

The first time it happened, it happened in front of a police officer who looked just as shocked as I did. We'd just arrived at the entrance to our local park to find it had been taped off due to a stabbing, and Ddog trotted merrily under the cordon and started sniffing 🤦‍♀️ Thankfully he came back as soon as he was called.

I think it's easier to police. If you take the large parks with deer, Bushy and Richmond for example, you don't have to walk dogs on lead there. There have been 4 stags/does killed in the last year as a result of dog attacks (and I read in one of the articles, 83 instances of the deer being chased by dogs). So make all dogs walk on lead in those areas - and anyone not walking their dog on lead is a) easier to spot and b) easier to fine.

I just don't think it works leaving it to people's judgement any more

there were signs 'asking' for people to walk their dogs on lead but not compelling them to. Given that dogs had already bothered the seal in the prior week, it wasn't only one person causing these issues.

Issue dog licenses. Provisional license upon purchase/rescue then full license after evidence of ownership and dog training. Heavy fines foe those found without a license and not adhering to ownership rules like cleaning up after dog and keeping them on lead.

Most dog owners I come across need to be more responsible. Even on this thread there is a dog owner saying that when their dog is off the lead they just potter about and chase squirrels. By allowing their dog to chase any wild animal or bird they are allowing their dog to indulge heir prey drive, and dogs don’t understand why some prey is allowed, and some isn’t, or even what the difference between the two is. I’ve had people walking their dogs off a lead past my house allow their dogs to chase pheasants off the lead in the forest, and be completely surprised when their dog gets into my garden and goes on a chicken-killing spree, but how is their dog to know they are allowed to chase some birds but not others?

Also in the ‘stupid owner who thinks they are a good owner’ category is the woman I came across last week training her dog’s recall on the Common near my home. Her dog was impressively well trained, she was sending it away and calling it back very well. She got really huffy though when I politely pointed out the ‘dogs on leads from March to July’ signs - we have rare ground-nesting birds near us and it doesn’t matter how well trained her dog is if the mere act of it running over the nesting ground puts birds off building nests and sitting on eggs.

@Magnificentmug12 he didn't get a chance judging by the look on the rabid dogs face. I hope the dog is put down and the owner prosecuted.

Sorry for the Daily Mail link, but in this photo the lead is clearly still attached to the owner unsnapped: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9392831/Calls-owner-face-fine-heartbroken-animal-lovers-mourn-death-Freddie-seal.html

You're right - lead does look intact - however, that doesn't mean it didn't fail on her.

Only last week, I was walking ddog home from the beach and he suddenly his lead came loose from his collar. He had been on-lead for a good hour and suddenly he wasn't - it was right by a (thankfully empty) road when it happened. The D-ring failed on me and the lead came off - my heart was in my mouth.

I thank my lucky stars the road was quiet and ddog listened to me when I said "wait". Many dogs in a similar situation would panic and bolt. It only takes a split second.

I am not trying to defend her but dogs are animals and sometimes, despite all our intentions and training, things go wrong. The dog is a terrier and they have notoriously high prey drives - if the dog DID in fact slip the lead, it's highly likely it would have been deaf to any attempt at recall once the seal was in its' sights.

I also live near an area of moorland where dogs must be on a lead of less than 2m at certain times of the year due to ground nesting birds. I was the only person with my dog on lead. My poor boy was beside himself at not being able to play with all the other dogs. Utterly selfish behaviour - all about what they want and fuck the wildlife that the area is supposed to protect.

Most dog owners I come across need to be more responsible. Even on this thread there is a dog owner saying that when their dog is off the lead they just potter about and chase squirrels. By allowing their dog to chase any wild animal or bird they are allowing their dog to indulge heir prey drive, and dogs don’t understand why some prey is allowed, and some isn’t, or even what the difference between the two is.

It's grey squirrels. They're vermin. Next you'll be saying owners of terriers - bred for ratting - shouldn't let their dogs kill rats either

Not only is Ddog genetically hardwired to chase rats and squirrels, he came to me as a rescue and quite frankly we always had much bigger issues to work on. I'm his fourth owner - others had been unable to cope. He's never caught anything by the way - and after a non-flying young seagull fell into the garden one year, I concluded he didn't really want to. He just stood there, barked at it, tried to get it to run so he could chase it, and then gave it a wide berth after the chick tried to peck him (wimp!)

I can assure you that where we walk - almost always a busy inner city park - there are no pheasants, pet chickens, ground nesting birds or even wild rabbits. There's horses in the vicinity (surprisingly, given how urban it is), but we give it a wide berth and there's paths I've never walked down because they run alongside horse fields because I'd never trust him around livestock.

Finally, might I suggest you improve your fences? Foxes are an ever present threat, and they'll be out in the daytime in the summer months, when the hours of darkness are short and they have a gaggle of hungry growing cubs to feed. If dogs can get in, foxes certainly can too.

@AvocadosBeforeMortgages

Most dog owners I come across need to be more responsible. Even on this thread there is a dog owner saying that when their dog is off the lead they just potter about and chase squirrels. By allowing their dog to chase any wild animal or bird they are allowing their dog to indulge heir prey drive, and dogs don’t understand why some prey is allowed, and some isn’t, or even what the difference between the two is.

It's grey squirrels. They're vermin. Next you'll be saying owners of terriers - bred for ratting - shouldn't let their dogs kill rats either

Not only is Ddog genetically hardwired to chase rats and squirrels, he came to me as a rescue and quite frankly we always had much bigger issues to work on. I'm his fourth owner - others had been unable to cope. He's never caught anything by the way - and after a non-flying young seagull fell into the garden one year, I concluded he didn't really want to. He just stood there, barked at it, tried to get it to run so he could chase it, and then gave it a wide berth after the chick tried to peck him (wimp!)

I can assure you that where we walk - almost always a busy inner city park - there are no pheasants, pet chickens, ground nesting birds or even wild rabbits. There's horses in the vicinity (surprisingly, given how urban it is), but we give it a wide berth and there's paths I've never walked down because they run alongside horse fields because I'd never trust him around livestock.

Finally, might I suggest you improve your fences? Foxes are an ever present threat, and they'll be out in the daytime in the summer months, when the hours of darkness are short and they have a gaggle of hungry growing cubs to feed. If dogs can get in, foxes certainly can too.

@AvocadosBeforeMortgages you see, everything you have just written here indicates to me that you really don’t understand your responsibilities as a dog owner! I spend more time around working dogs than your average pet pooch owner, including terriers, and most of the terrier owners I know DO train their working dogs to fixate on one particular prey animal that their owner wishes them to catch as vermin, and they are not allowed off the lead in public areas where they may be a problem. I get rats under the hen house, as many chicken keepers do, and our local terrier group will happily send some of their ratters down to clear them out. They absolutely not send a terrier trained for, say, fox work (and yes, it is legal to use up to 2 dogs to flush a problem fox out to a gun) as they are trained differently. The difference between your terrier randomly running after stuff in the woods and these highly trained dogs is training and owners who understand a terrier’s prey drive.

People like you piss me right off - I have a neighbour who says ‘...my dog wouldn’t actually want to catch a bird.....they have a prey drive, it’s in their breeding...’ and the problems with allowing a dog to chase things - any things, even vermin - is that it reinforces their prey drive. As a responsible dog owner you should not be reinforcing it unless you know why you want your dog to chase things and are aware of the consequences, which you clearly aren’t. You say you don’t come across anything where you walk that your dog might catch (apart from squirrels) but if you encourage your dog’s prey drive by allowing it to chase things, when you do unexpectedly come across something it shouldn’t chase you have absolutely no way at all of getting your dog to not chase the unfortunate creature. The stupid woman who’s dog caught the seal probably didn’t expect to find a seal in London, but her dog caught one and caused it’s death and now she is Enemy Number 1 and in the papers. She will probably be getting more unwanted attention right now that she ever imagined, all because she was sure her dog wasn’t going to catch a much-loved high-profile wild animal.

As for ‘get better fences’ I am perfectly comfortable with the local foxes. We have an uneasy relationship where occasionally a fox catches a chicken free ranging in my garden and fields, and I keep a close eye on them. The chances of a fox running into my garden in front of me and my children during daylight hours and decimating my birds is slim-to-nil, but I have had several occasions where dog walkers have allowed their dogs to do this, and they more often than not have a look of ignorant horror on their faces and say ‘I didn’t think my dog would do this’ or ‘I didn’t expect to see chickens in this bit of countryside’ or you should have better fences so I don’t have to control my dog because I am an ignorant moron.’ (No one has ever actually said those particular words, but their faces say it.) I had a problem with a dog from the village that killed a number of my chickens and then took a liking to chasing my son’s pony in the field. We were concerned that left uncontrolled the dog would eventually do serious injury or even kill the pony (which does happen) and were able to video the dog in the field several times. On one occasion it drew blood and left teeth marks in the pony’s leg. My neighbour said ‘it is your responsibility to keep your horses safe - get better fences.’ Well, my fences are perfectly sufficient to keep my animals in. It is not my responsibility to keep a domestic dog out, that lies with the owner. The police agreed and on viewing the footage and vet’s report they served notice on the dog owner that if it happened one more time his dog would be seized under the Dangerous Dogs Act and destroyed. You wanting me (other people) to get a fence so you (the irresponsible dog owner) can continue to allow your dog to run around and chase random animals is the wrong way round, according to the law.

And if you think I am over reacting, you should speak to my friend the sheep farmer. Dickhead dog owners cost her £1000s every single year, and every single time the dog owner is at fault.

@sunflowersandbuttercups

*Sorry for the Daily Mail link, but in this photo the lead is clearly still attached to the owner unsnapped: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9392831/Calls-owner-face-fine-heartbroken-animal-lovers-mourn-death-Freddie-seal.html*

You're right - lead does look intact - however, that doesn't mean it didn't fail on her.

Only last week, I was walking ddog home from the beach and he suddenly his lead came loose from his collar. He had been on-lead for a good hour and suddenly he wasn't - it was right by a (thankfully empty) road when it happened. The D-ring failed on me and the lead came off - my heart was in my mouth.

I thank my lucky stars the road was quiet and ddog listened to me when I said "wait". Many dogs in a similar situation would panic and bolt. It only takes a split second.

I am not trying to defend her but dogs are animals and sometimes, despite all our intentions and training, things go wrong. The dog is a terrier and they have notoriously high prey drives - if the dog DID in fact slip the lead, it's highly likely it would have been deaf to any attempt at recall once the seal was in its' sights.

The dog was definitely off lead, sadly.

The woman has been identified and has made a statement to the press. She said that 'with hindsight' she wishes she'd put her dog on the lead.

It's been confirmed no further action will be taken against her.

@percheron67

Dogs should be trained properly and the owner in control - which is rarely true these days. When I look out of my drawing room window I see clueless owners being pulled along by their dogs. With so little control on the lead is it any wonder that there is next to nothing when off it. Harnesses don't help, they give no control over the direction of your dog's head - would you feel happy riding a horse if the reins were attached to the saddle?! No .... I am not suggesting that we put bits in a dog's mouth before some bright spark suggests that i am.

I agree with this totally.

It should have been on a lead, and she deserves a fine. Then we should move on, calls to put down a free running dog because it found a big fish and tried to eat it (because it was being a dog and they eat such things), are ridiculous. Likewise ‘it will be a child next’. It’s a terrible accident, poor seal, fine the owner under out of control dog laws, but some stuff on here is bonkers.

it found a big fish and tried to eat it You do know a seal is a mammal, and not traditionally dog food? If you have a dog which routinely attacks whatever large mammals it comes across you have a choice to either take responsibility and keep it on a lead, or the choice will be taken away from you. My neighbour is on a final warning with his dogs - if they are found chasing or attacking anything again (and so far they have killed chickens, sheep and wild deer, and had a good go at attacking grazing horses and passing joggers and walkers) the police will take them away and put them to sleep. Because he is not responsible enough and has allowed them to become a problem and dangerous. If all the dog owners out their understood their dogs it is likely that the number of attack incidents would be much lower. Dog attacks on other animals are at an all-time high because people are walking them in places they don't really know due to covid. It's taken a seal attack in London to bring it to the public attention, but a lot of country-dwellers are thoroughly fed up of dogs chasing sheep, horses, calves, chickens, etc. Hopefully this incident will make those dog owners take more responsibility.