I have contacted someone via ABPC and wondered if I should be doing anything else in short term

[newuser000]

Hi all,

I don't post very often at all but I do try and read lots. First time dog owner so I'm learning lots.

I have sent the email below (tweaked slightly to avoid outing). Wondered if it sounds like I'm doing the right thing and if there is anything else I should be doing or considering?

Email to behaviourist

We have newpup, a 6.5 months, cockapoo/ crossbreed (75% cocker spaniel 25% poodle). He lives with me and my family (2 kids 12 & 19) and has done since he left the litter at 10 weeks old. He is mostly a very friendly, happy dog but over the last 4 weeks we’ve noticed a change. He has started to show aggression/fear at other people, so far not at me and mostly it seems quite spontaneous and it isn’t always clear why.

1. He can resource guard with certain treats (chews/pigs ear). This has only happened a few times so we are careful when he has these and where – we’ll give them to him in a quiet spot and avoid when he’s tired. I either make sure he’s given enough time to finish it or I offer a swap when he’s naturally had a break and doesn’t seem obsessed with it. When it has happened he’ll growl, lip curl and snap when approached if he’s really engrossed in it but we have been able to trade a swap or call him to another room for a treat. He doesn't have them often and it doesn't happen all the time.
   a. He’s not guarded his food bowl (yet) and happily eats from hand.

2. Snapping at people – he has snapped and growled at people without much warning.
   a. Today he was sleepy at work at my desk and woke as a colleague walked pasted and he lifted his head to acknowledge her, she greeted him in a positive vocal way from a distance, he looked happy to see her and his body language seemed relaxed and welcoming, she walked towards him, continuing to talk to him, he rolled on his back and looked like he wanted a belly rub, she rubbed his neck and went to move her hand towards his belly and then his body language suddenly changed and he snapped, barked and growled and his body language appeared very scared. Once she had backed off he was ok and looked remorseful if that’s possible!
   i. He was on a long lead (not sure if this makes a difference), he was near me and next to his crate (which he wasn’t in). In hindsight its quite a small space so can understand that he suddenly felt intimidated.
   ii. He used to come to work with me (Nov & Dec) and was fine but we have been at home while we home-schooled and worked from home so a definite change of the routine. Its only day 2 of being back in the office.
   iii. I now have a pot of treats on my desk and try and give him one as people approach the desk and ask them to give him a treat too.
   iv. Other times today he has really enjoyed a fuss and a stroke.
   b. Yesterday he was waiting outside school for my youngest. He loved the school gate before and seemed happy watching the goings on. Two children from the class were v excited to see him, I’m always more aware with these particular children and they treat him like a teddy bear so yesterday I said they could offer one treat, quick stroke and then asked them to leave him while he got used to being back at school. One of them slowly moved back, I was a bit distracted as my son was just walking out but the dog seemed fine, approached her and she gave him a fuss but he suddenly snapped and growled at her. I said ‘no’, picked him up and put him in the car. In hindsight I think I can see the issues – too much too soon and I should have stuck with my initial plan and not let her come back to him. Or even better had him watching from a distance where the kids didn’t approach him? That's what I did today.
   c. Mostly in the evenings, he’ll be snoozing on the sofa and if one of the kids comes downstairs he’ll hear them and start growling if they come into the room. We’ve been dealing with this by the kids talking before they enter the room so he knows its them and I chuck a few treats at him.
   d. He tends to growl more at my eldest, he’s 19 so I think it’s because he’s physically bigger. I’m sure the dog likes him, mostly he’s happy to see him and likes being fused by him – he used to bark when he stopped stroking until he stroked him again! Its happens mostly in the evening so I think the dog being tired is a factor.

He doesn’t direct these behaviours to me (although I think he would if he was resource guarding). He is my shadow and wants to be wherever I am. I am trying to leave him more to soften the attachment to me. I’m doing this by closing the stairgate and being upstairs whist he’s downstairs. Closing the door while I take the bins out. I also pop to the shops leaving him for a few minutes, both walking and in car and I have started running again so I leaving him then (20-30 mins 2 or 3 times a week). Most of the time he’s left with the kids in the house although the plan is to start leaving him alone when he’s more comfortable. I leave him with some treats and something like a frozen kong or lickimat.

Sleeping – he mostly gets enough sleep. His attachment to me means he only sleeps when I’m sat in one place for the time he needs. He doesn’t have a sleeping place which I know isn’t ideal but the way our house is, both layout and the coming and goings of people in it, there isn’t one space which is a good space morning and night. Day he sleeps near to me and at night he sleeps in my room.

He is very friendly and popular, he’s never shown any fear/aggression to other people or dogs on walks and is known for lying down for a belly rub with locals! He’s well behaved with basic commands – sit, lie down, paw, spin and his recall is mostly very good (use whistle for when he doesn’t come on voice command).

I've googled lots and wonder if it’s a socialisation fear issue and probably mostly due to the change in routine that lockdown has brought and also his age (recently started humping other dogs). I was reading your consultation and I’m not sure if a home visit is needed yet as he doesn’t always display this behaviour. Is that ignorant first dog attitude though?! I’ll keep using treats to desensitise in the environments the behaviour has happened so far. The sleep opportunity is better for him at work and I have started a conversation with the vet about neutering him (is likely he’ll need to go to doggy day care later in year).

I’m very aware that I can’t ignore or just hope it improves, does it sound like something that you would suggest professional advice at this time?

• end of email -

He also snapped and growled a family member (teen boy) was fussing him last week (when I popped into the office - family business). Seemed to be happily enjoying someone fussing him and then didn't. I wasn't directly watching him so I'm not exactly sure what happened.

I watch him a lot more now and will not leave him unsupervised when other people are around for now.

Thanks for reading!

No idea but my cocker is very similar so I’m interested to see what response/advice you get. Has he got golden cocker in him?

Well done for reaching out for help - at this young age, a behaviourist will be happy to step in and help you before any of this gets too ingrained.

While you wait for that help, use what you've identified above to stop situations where he gets worried/reacts.

e.g. resource guarding: stop trying to take resources off him

e.g. growls at children and teens fussing him: stop them doing so

Really. The very best thing you can do while you wait for help, is try and prevent any o the scenarios in which the dog feels he needs to react - i.e. damage limitation rather than cure, at this stage. Not least because it sounds like you might need some help to correctly identifiy what he really enjoys. I might be wrong but it reads like he has not enjoyed some of these scenarios as much as you might have thought he did. A nervous puppy can sometimes look like an (over) excited one, or even a happy one, if you're not too sure what you are looking for.

Personally, I would also limit treats a bit. Mainly because desensitisation is a specific process and doing things a bit in the wrong order, or with not great timing, can confuse matters a bit rather than help. You risk setting up a scenario where the dog learns to mistrust food/treats, rather than learns to trust x, y or z - just for e.g. It might help to work with someone who knows this process and can advise specifically on what to best apply it with your dog.

In short, I'd be trying to keep everything calm and easy until you get a response from your behaviourist. There's a lot of info here and a lot to unpick so don't be surprised if they ask to see the dog, such as outside for a walk.

Blimey.

I’m sorry to no doubt come across thoroughly unpleasant here, indeed, I imagine everyone, yourself included, will react in horror so really, it’s quite meaningless typing it but anyway..

In just 6 and a half months your dog is regularly growling and air snapping over resources and every time your children enter the room.

He has growled and snapped at your colleague and then two school children.

You say he has growled and snapped at others too without much warning.

He is regularly growling at your 19 year old son.

Sooner or later this dog will end up biting and injuring someone.

Why is it still in your house?!

If we were discussing a Rottweiler or an Akita the vicious little bastard would have been PTS by now.
But because it’s a cockerpoo it’s presumably fine?

Your dog is a liability and an injury waiting to happen.

OP is reaching out for help here and given us a lot of information. Is there really any need for the nastiness?

Why do people who obviously have no knowledge of dogs, post on the doghouse?

1. It’s a puppy.

2.If it wanted to bite, it would have bitten.

Resource guarding is quite common in cockers/cockerpoos.

Your puppy is prime time for the ‘second fear’ period.

Is there really any need for the nastiness?
The dog has gone for 4 separate people; the colleague, the two school children and the teenage boy.

In addition the dog is growling whenever the OPs children enter the room, it’s growling at her eldest, it’s snapping at people guarding resources and OP says it is growling at snapping at people with little warning which I assume to mean it has gone for more than 4 people.

It is utterly negligent, irresponsible and selfish to put people at risk like that.
Sooner or later this dog will bite someone.
The OP knows the dog is aggressive yet it’s managed to go for more than 4 people.

It is behaviour like this that is precisely why a lot of workplaces and schools do not allow dogs.
If I was the colleague or the mother of the child the dog went for and I got wind the dog had precious for this kind of behaviour I would be livid and I would report the OP.
She is lucky as yet no one has.

I stand by my initial comment that if this was a large, macho breed, the dog would have been PTS by now.

The dog is a bite waiting to happen and OP needs to take responsibility and ensure her dog cannot continue aggressing at people.

I really don't think you are reading his body language accurately. The exposing his belly sounds like he's scared and submissive when people are approaching him, the last thing he wants is for them to touch him. This regularly gets ignored, so he's escalating to growling and snapping.

Basically - what SirSniffsALot says: until you can get a behaviourist to observe and help you interpret how he's feeling your only option is to avoid people touching him. Please don't try desensitisation, without proper guidance, and being able to read him better, it could go horribly wrong.

Why do people who obviously have no knowledge of dogs, post on the doghouse?
I have a dog.

1. It’s a puppy
2.If it wanted to bite, it would have bitten
Growling and air snapping whenever people enter the room, approach a resource and when being petted is not normal puppy behaviour and no aggressive dog starts out biting.
It starts with warning (growls and air snaps)

Resource guarding is quite common in cockers/cockerpoos
Oh well that’s okay then!

OP keep things calm

Get a Vet check
Give your dog a lot of space
Do not leave unattended with children
Do not let people approach your dog at all
Do not castrate

Hide this thread and wait for the behavouist to get back to you

But OP has stated they are seeking professional advice, so they are taking responsibility.

I agree that as it's a small dog the behaviour was probably allowed to get worse. I have a large dog so know full well that small dogs can be allowed to behave worse.

Do you really suggest a 6 1/2 month dog should be PTS rather than getting professional help?

I've seen a lot of resource guarding in cockerpoos from the spaniel side, to the point where cockerpoos snap at my dog, so I get that the behaviour is not ok.

But as I say, OP is seeking help and shouldn't be getting blanket abuse.

thanks for the quick replies :-)

@FishWithoutABike I believe so yes, does that make a difference? I thought I researched but learning so much!

@SirSniffsAlot thank you so much, over treating and possibly creating a mistrust is something I want to avoid.

Re: resource guarding - he doesn't often have something I think he'll guard - less than once a month. I don't take it off him while he's engrossed in it, if he displays the behaviour its a growl warning. He's guarded something 3 times in total so not a frequent occurrence. Twice we called him into another room and call him for a treat, he never goes back to the item so we scoop up and put away. the other time we didn't realise he was guarding as his chew was tucked under a bag, that time we called him away and only realised he was guarding when I lifted the bag and saw his chew.

@BigWolfLittleWolf thanks for your comment. I have been clear with everyone that if this behaviour continues or gets worse he's off. I've given the details of recent behaviour but its really isn't regular nor every time - not even most of the time. Today he snapped at my colleague but hasn't displayed that kind of behaviour any other time. Its not a daily occurrence. The kids have been in and out the front room today, have been playing with him and he's been fine.

@Stellaris22 thanks, read enough to know that a mix of responses was likely!

I know I'm missing some signs and I'll be watching him more closely. I think the environment lockdown created has been a factor and I think he's not had enough sleep. Ironically he'll sleep better at the office as I'm not up and down all the time. Also age, he's started humping other dogs for the first time this week?

@PeckyOwl

I really don't think you are reading his body language accurately. The exposing his belly sounds like he's scared and submissive when people are approaching him, the last thing he wants is for them to touch him. This regularly gets ignored, so he's escalating to growling and snapping.

Basically - what SirSniffsALot says: until you can get a behaviourist to observe and help you interpret how he's feeling your only option is to avoid people touching him. Please don't try desensitisation, without proper guidance, and being able to read him better, it could go horribly wrong.

I was just about to say that... I don’t think you’re reading him right.

And yeah, don’t do anything except avoiding him being put in those situations where you know he’s unhappy until you’ve got help.

@PeckyOwl

I really don't think you are reading his body language accurately. The exposing his belly sounds like he's scared and submissive when people are approaching him, the last thing he wants is for them to touch him. This regularly gets ignored, so he's escalating to growling and snapping.

Basically - what SirSniffsALot says: until you can get a behaviourist to observe and help you interpret how he's feeling your only option is to avoid people touching him. Please don't try desensitisation, without proper guidance, and being able to read him better, it could go horribly wrong.

Exactly this.

But OP has stated they are seeking professional advice, so they are taking responsibility
This is true but it is shocking the dog has been able to behave in this way to so many people.
The first growl and snap was warning enough.
To allow it to happen a further minimum three times judging by the OP, I’m sorry but that is utterly irresponsible and it is sheer luck no one has reported OP.

Do you really suggest a 6 1/2 month dog should be PTS rather than getting professional help?
If I had a dog that young that growled whenever someone entered the room, that went for at minimum 4 people with little to no apparent warning, that growled at my son for no apparent reason and that aggressively guarded resources on top, personally, I would consider that dog unsafe and yes I would PTS.
The dog is just 6 and a half months old.
That level of aggression to people is, to me, staggering and abnormal.

But as I say, OP is seeking help and shouldn't be getting blanket abuse
I’m glad the OP is seeking help but I maintain that she has acted incredibly irresponsibly and imo it is because the dog is a small, ‘cute’ breed.
It isn’t acceptable and tbh the OP is lucky no one has kicked up in real life.
As I say, if I was the child’s parent or the colleague and I knew the OP knew this wasn’t an isolated, out of the blue incident and the dog had previous for this sort of behaviour I would be absolutely livid and I absolutely would report the OP.

sorry more replies while I was typing.

@ArcherDog thanks will go and google second fear. I honestly thought I researched loads but so much to learn!

@BigWolfLittleWolf I do hear your concerns. He's met a lot more people and not reacted in that way. Its not his norm, doesn't mean its right or he'll be fine I know. The people involved in the situations have been understandable and ok. It wasn't two children, one of those came back against my initial instructions. He saw three children that day and had a positive exchange (quick treat, stroke walk away) and reacted to one who returned. I am not being irresponsible.

@PeckyOwl you are totally right. I'm a bit open mouthed at my own stupidity at the belly showing. He loves a fuss and often sinks down for a belly rub and has seemingly loved it - when he's wide awake.

@PollyRoulson thanks and the hiding message made me smile. Genuinely happy to get feedback. I'll go with advice experts who see him in real life!

@newuser000 when I contacted the behaviourist the first thing he asked was is he golden when I said yes he said that they are notorious for behavioural issues. I wish I’d known that before we got FishPup.

Lying on the back is classic appeasement behaviour - it's a dig trying to diffuse an unwanted intrusion but if the intrusion continues aggression can occur.

Your dog sounds very anxious and is likely giving off body language that you aren't picking up on

Please look at the anxiety behaviours leading to aggression and take steps to reduce your dog's stress levels

waggy-tales.com/body-language/understanding-the-canine-ladder-of-aggression

Also look up 'trigger stacking' as it seems he's easily overwhelmed.

www.albanypetservices.co.uk/so-what-is-trigger-stacking/

thanks for your comment. I have been clear with everyone that if this behaviour continues or gets worse he's off. I've given the details of recent behaviour but its really isn't regular nor every time - not even most of the time. Today he snapped at my colleague but hasn't displayed that kind of behaviour any other time. Its not a daily occurrence. The kids have been in and out the front room today, have been playing with him and he's been fine
I’m a bit confused tbh.

Your OP stated he was aggressively guarding items.

That he was growling whenever your children entered the room, so I assumed daily?
Maybe multiple times a day?

That he was regularly growling at your 19 year old?

That he had started growling and snapping at people with little warning?
You then listed 4 separate incidents?

But your recent update gives the impression his aggressive behaviour is rare?

Which is it?

@tabulahrasa @FictionalCharacter thank you.

The belly thing has blown my mind. I'll be thinking of that loads now!

As PP have said, in the short-term I would stop letting people approach him and stop taking him to the school gates. where it's difficult to prevent people (especially children) approaching him. I would also stop giving him belly rubs, in case you are misreading his body language.

Read about the canine ladder of aggression because it's likely that he's giving subtle signals that he's unhappy, such as lip licking or head turns, before escalating to a growl when those don't work.

I said ‘no’, picked him up and put him in the car. Also, never punish a growl or you risk creating a dog that bites without giving a verbal warning that he is unhappy.

With the belly, it isn’t always a submissive fear thing.
It depends on the rest of the dog.

If the dog is stiff and tense, if the tail is rigid, whites of the eyes showing etc it’s fear.

If the dog is relaxed and loose it just wants a belly rub!

This would be a fearful/submissive belly flop.

Another example.
The dog is tense, not relaxed

@BigWolfLittleWolf

They are all true but its not all the time or most of the time.

Resource guarding - He first showed signs of resource guarding the day after Boxing Day when he had his first half pigs ear. From them I was careful about what he had and when.

Growling when kids come in room - started about 4 weeks ago. Not daily. I think its worse when he's tired. He's asleep on sofa, hears the kid starting to come downstairs, his head lifts, he's listening and watching and growls as he approaches the door. Has barked a few times but its mostly growl. Doesn't get off the sofa.

When you consider the aggressive acts as part of all his encounters with people they are rare. He has far more positive experiences and is known for being very friendly. We live on a main road and he's known by loads of people because he wants to meet them and get a fuss. People always say how good he is! I know I know ;-)

These however, I would interpret as happy dogs wanting a belly rub.
They are relaxed and smiling with no tension

@Happenchance

As PP have said, in the short-term I would stop letting people approach him and stop taking him to the school gates. where it's difficult to prevent people (especially children) approaching him. I would also stop giving him belly rubs, in case you are misreading his body language.

Read about the canine ladder of aggression because it's likely that he's giving subtle signals that he's unhappy, such as lip licking or head turns, before escalating to a growl when those don't work.

I said ‘no’, picked him up and put him in the car. Also, never punish a growl or you risk creating a dog that bites without giving a verbal warning that he is unhappy.

Yes. This. If you punish growling all you're doing us teaching the dog that you will punish any communications/warnings he gives about his distress. That will just increase his stress and increase the risk of aggression without warning.

And the photos show clear appeasement - hopefully you can see the difference?