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If you're worried about your pet's health, please speak to a vet or qualified professional.

I have contacted someone via ABPC and wondered if I should be doing anything else in short term

50 replies

newuser000 · 09/03/2021 19:39

Hi all,

I don't post very often at all but I do try and read lots. First time dog owner so I'm learning lots.

I have sent the email below (tweaked slightly to avoid outing). Wondered if it sounds like I'm doing the right thing and if there is anything else I should be doing or considering?

Email to behaviourist

We have newpup, a 6.5 months, cockapoo/ crossbreed (75% cocker spaniel 25% poodle). He lives with me and my family (2 kids 12 & 19) and has done since he left the litter at 10 weeks old. He is mostly a very friendly, happy dog but over the last 4 weeks we’ve noticed a change. He has started to show aggression/fear at other people, so far not at me and mostly it seems quite spontaneous and it isn’t always clear why.

  1. He can resource guard with certain treats (chews/pigs ear). This has only happened a few times so we are careful when he has these and where – we’ll give them to him in a quiet spot and avoid when he’s tired. I either make sure he’s given enough time to finish it or I offer a swap when he’s naturally had a break and doesn’t seem obsessed with it. When it has happened he’ll growl, lip curl and snap when approached if he’s really engrossed in it but we have been able to trade a swap or call him to another room for a treat. He doesn't have them often and it doesn't happen all the time.
    a. He’s not guarded his food bowl (yet) and happily eats from hand.

  2. Snapping at people – he has snapped and growled at people without much warning.
    a. Today he was sleepy at work at my desk and woke as a colleague walked pasted and he lifted his head to acknowledge her, she greeted him in a positive vocal way from a distance, he looked happy to see her and his body language seemed relaxed and welcoming, she walked towards him, continuing to talk to him, he rolled on his back and looked like he wanted a belly rub, she rubbed his neck and went to move her hand towards his belly and then his body language suddenly changed and he snapped, barked and growled and his body language appeared very scared. Once she had backed off he was ok and looked remorseful if that’s possible!
    i. He was on a long lead (not sure if this makes a difference), he was near me and next to his crate (which he wasn’t in). In hindsight its quite a small space so can understand that he suddenly felt intimidated.
    ii. He used to come to work with me (Nov & Dec) and was fine but we have been at home while we home-schooled and worked from home so a definite change of the routine. Its only day 2 of being back in the office.
    iii. I now have a pot of treats on my desk and try and give him one as people approach the desk and ask them to give him a treat too.
    iv. Other times today he has really enjoyed a fuss and a stroke.
    b. Yesterday he was waiting outside school for my youngest. He loved the school gate before and seemed happy watching the goings on. Two children from the class were v excited to see him, I’m always more aware with these particular children and they treat him like a teddy bear so yesterday I said they could offer one treat, quick stroke and then asked them to leave him while he got used to being back at school. One of them slowly moved back, I was a bit distracted as my son was just walking out but the dog seemed fine, approached her and she gave him a fuss but he suddenly snapped and growled at her. I said ‘no’, picked him up and put him in the car. In hindsight I think I can see the issues – too much too soon and I should have stuck with my initial plan and not let her come back to him. Or even better had him watching from a distance where the kids didn’t approach him? That's what I did today.
    c. Mostly in the evenings, he’ll be snoozing on the sofa and if one of the kids comes downstairs he’ll hear them and start growling if they come into the room. We’ve been dealing with this by the kids talking before they enter the room so he knows its them and I chuck a few treats at him.
    d. He tends to growl more at my eldest, he’s 19 so I think it’s because he’s physically bigger. I’m sure the dog likes him, mostly he’s happy to see him and likes being fused by him – he used to bark when he stopped stroking until he stroked him again! Its happens mostly in the evening so I think the dog being tired is a factor.

He doesn’t direct these behaviours to me (although I think he would if he was resource guarding). He is my shadow and wants to be wherever I am. I am trying to leave him more to soften the attachment to me. I’m doing this by closing the stairgate and being upstairs whist he’s downstairs. Closing the door while I take the bins out. I also pop to the shops leaving him for a few minutes, both walking and in car and I have started running again so I leaving him then (20-30 mins 2 or 3 times a week). Most of the time he’s left with the kids in the house although the plan is to start leaving him alone when he’s more comfortable. I leave him with some treats and something like a frozen kong or lickimat.

Sleeping – he mostly gets enough sleep. His attachment to me means he only sleeps when I’m sat in one place for the time he needs. He doesn’t have a sleeping place which I know isn’t ideal but the way our house is, both layout and the coming and goings of people in it, there isn’t one space which is a good space morning and night. Day he sleeps near to me and at night he sleeps in my room.

He is very friendly and popular, he’s never shown any fear/aggression to other people or dogs on walks and is known for lying down for a belly rub with locals! He’s well behaved with basic commands – sit, lie down, paw, spin and his recall is mostly very good (use whistle for when he doesn’t come on voice command).

I've googled lots and wonder if it’s a socialisation fear issue and probably mostly due to the change in routine that lockdown has brought and also his age (recently started humping other dogs). I was reading your consultation and I’m not sure if a home visit is needed yet as he doesn’t always display this behaviour. Is that ignorant first dog attitude though?! I’ll keep using treats to desensitise in the environments the behaviour has happened so far. The sleep opportunity is better for him at work and I have started a conversation with the vet about neutering him (is likely he’ll need to go to doggy day care later in year).

I’m very aware that I can’t ignore or just hope it improves, does it sound like something that you would suggest professional advice at this time?

  • end of email -

He also snapped and growled a family member (teen boy) was fussing him last week (when I popped into the office - family business). Seemed to be happily enjoying someone fussing him and then didn't. I wasn't directly watching him so I'm not exactly sure what happened.

I watch him a lot more now and will not leave him unsupervised when other people are around for now.

Thanks for reading!

OP posts:
Veterinari · 09/03/2021 21:42

[quote newuser000]@BigWolfLittleWolf

They are all true but its not all the time or most of the time.

Resource guarding - He first showed signs of resource guarding the day after Boxing Day when he had his first half pigs ear. From them I was careful about what he had and when.

Growling when kids come in room - started about 4 weeks ago. Not daily. I think its worse when he's tired. He's asleep on sofa, hears the kid starting to come downstairs, his head lifts, he's listening and watching and growls as he approaches the door. Has barked a few times but its mostly growl. Doesn't get off the sofa.

When you consider the aggressive acts as part of all his encounters with people they are rare. He has far more positive experiences and is known for being very friendly. We live on a main road and he's known by loads of people because he wants to meet them and get a fuss. People always say how good he is! I know I know ;-)[/quote]
Has he been vet checked to rule out any underlying pain?

newuser000 · 09/03/2021 21:49

@Happenchance thanks - will go off and look for the ladder. Today I parked elsewhere and he was allowed out of the car to wait away from everyone. No meets for fuss other than an experienced dog walker who was told - he loved the fuss from her though. He was happy to be out of the car watching so will do that in future.

@BigWolfLittleWolf thanks for the photos. I'll watch carefully usually though its a loose flop. Sometimes on the way home after a walk he lies down and it takes three separate belly rubs for him to get up and walk again. Have spent a few mins considering his body language but I'm convinced its a good one!

OP posts:
newuser000 · 09/03/2021 22:06

@Veterinari no hasn't been checked by vet but will make a call tomorrow.

Re: punishing the growling - get it mostly I don't. At work today I was told off for not telling him off! Prob use treats too much and mostly a reassuring voice.

Biggest kid just came in and dog was very clearly relaxed and wanting a belly rub - quick belly rub and then away so its a positive experience.

OP posts:
sunflowersandbuttercups · 09/03/2021 22:31

He sounds extremely anxious to me.

Until you've had him assessed by a vet for pain I would keep him away from all the children - even the oldest. Just for safety as much as anything really - he may well be in pain and you don't want one of them to accidentally make it worse.

You're doing absolutely the right thing in getting him help and I want to say well done you! It can be so hard to admit that they need outside guidance.

I don't want to suggest any behaviour modification or corrections as I think he needs to be seen by a professional however please don't punish him for guarding and I would stop giving him any belly rubs too.

Like PP said they are often a sign of appeasement not attention seeking and they already appear to be a trigger point for biting and snapping, so the safest thing to do is just stop them altogether.

Hope you manage to get some help 😊

FictionalCharacter · 09/03/2021 22:38

[quote newuser000]**@tabulahrasa* @FictionalCharacter* thank you.

The belly thing has blown my mind. I'll be thinking of that loads now![/quote]
It's sad really, so many people have been taught since childhood that a dog that rolls onto its back in front of you is saying "tickle my tummy" when it really, really isn't. So many dogs have to endure unwanted and often boisterous petting when they just want to be left alone. If they object, in the only language they know, they are blamed and even punished.

BigWolfLittleWolf · 09/03/2021 22:44

It's sad really, so many people have been taught since childhood that a dog that rolls onto its back in front of you is saying "tickle my tummy" when it really, really isn't
Some genuinely are though!
It’s not an exclusive sign of stress like say, a lip lick.
It can be either.
A sign of appeasement/stress/fear or genuinely wanting a tummy tickle!

Stellaris22 · 10/03/2021 06:45

Dogs do like tummy rubs though! It's about recognising signs and behaviour. A stiff and tense dog will be anxious and wanting to be left alone. One that is relaxed and playful will love it, mine definitely does.

Veterinari · 10/03/2021 07:23

[quote newuser000]@Veterinari no hasn't been checked by vet but will make a call tomorrow.

Re: punishing the growling - get it mostly I don't. At work today I was told off for not telling him off! Prob use treats too much and mostly a reassuring voice.

Biggest kid just came in and dog was very clearly relaxed and wanting a belly rub - quick belly rub and then away so its a positive experience.[/quote]
It sounds like you're doing all the right things @newuser000
Have a look at the links I posted earlier on body language and trigger stacking and try to minimise any potential stressors

I'd also suggest starting muzzle training. It's helpful to be able to use a muzzle for all dogs and proper training means it can be a stress free and even enjoyable experience

WhatElseCouldIWrite · 10/03/2021 07:35

If suggest a vet check in the first instance and perhaps discuss when to neuter.
Well done on seeking a behaviourists help thought, definitely the right thing.
Hopefully with a bit of work you can get your pup back to normal. Good luck OP

Ihaventgottimeforthis · 10/03/2021 07:58

How does that even work though, you go to your vet & ask for a puppy to be PTS?
Why's that?
He growls at my children.
Have you seen a behaviourist?
No I thought I'd just go straight to kill, better safe than sorry...
Would any vet actually PTS under these circumstances?
Good luck OP, I'd also say there are lots of groups & resources out there which are useful for helping children especially understand dog body language, in my experience its a constant process. So much of how they communicate is counter-intuitive to us.
I'd definitely agree with the 'avoid' comments too. Does he have to be at work with you?

donewithitalltodayandxmas · 10/03/2021 08:24

Def a vet check and avoid any situations that set him off , especially the school gate , if he bites then theres not much going back.
Hope the behaviourist gets back asap
Does he have a crate or bed or safe place at home ?

Veterinari · 10/03/2021 08:53

@WhatElseCouldIWrite

If suggest a vet check in the first instance and perhaps discuss when to neuter. Well done on seeking a behaviourists help thought, definitely the right thing. Hopefully with a bit of work you can get your pup back to normal. Good luck OP
Do not neuter an anxious/fear aggressive dog - it will only make the situation worse

Neutering is not a universal panacea for behaviour problems

newuser000 · 10/03/2021 10:17

thanks again everyone, really appreciated.

Read lots last night and I can see how most of the situations were likely to be 'stacked' so I'll much much more aware going forward.

I can see how he's been anxious in those circumstances. I wouldn't have described him as an anxious dog but I'll be watching loads now to see if he is more anxious than I realise generally.

I wish I could wear a body cam so I can replay events! The last 4 weeks is when the behaviour has appeared, looking back its also been quite a busy few weeks for me so I wonder if that's part of it - as mentioned before he's like my shadow so if I'm up and down from desk, round the house etc he's following me. That's not normal for me, a result of lockdown and busy work issues.

@Ihaventgottimeforthis he doesn't have to be at work with me but alternative is being at home alone more often. He was at work with me all of November and December and was fine. I'm hoping with more time and routine it will all settle. There aren't many of us at work, everyone is dog friendly and now kids are back there's no children milling around.

@donewithitalltodayandxmas no he doesn't have his own space in the house. Its my big regret really but the layout and our lifestyle/body clocks means there isn't one space that's suitable. He has areas all over the house but he tends to settle where I am. Upstairs - he sleeps at night in my room. Downstairs - he has a vetbed under the kitchen dining room table and will use while I'm cooking, food and water is under the stairs (idea was he could have hallway and kitchen when we were out and he was alone). Kitchen doesn't have heating so I didn't want to set him up there, plus its a bit of a throughfare. Front room, he used to have a bed but never used it so now curls up on the sofa. When I work from home I'm on the dining room so he'll curl up in the corner on a rug I put down for him.

The kids know to leave him alone if he's asleep or chilling.

I'll be sure to share the body language findings with the kids so we all know what to look for.

OP posts:
Ihaventgottimeforthis · 10/03/2021 10:47

Is there space under the stairs to pop a crate or bed for him? Sounds like he might be starting to experience seperation anxiety and be on edge a lot of the time so yep trying to find him a safe space could be a good start.

newuser000 · 10/03/2021 18:12

Update!

He has an ear infection in both ears :-( Have some medicine and some anxiety tablets to help. Vet and vet nurse had a good chat and we'll see how he goes.

He also has a ballbag that hasn't dropped so its not been a great news day for him ;-)

Thanks again everyone for your help. I have learned loads from the information you've shared and suggested. I really appreciate it

OP posts:
PollyRoulson · 10/03/2021 19:07

Poor little chap

Re undescended testicles please do some research on this too! so much researchSmile

It may still drop even after the 8 months that people say it wont it may do so do not be in a rush to have it removed.

Yes he does have to have thtese undescended testicle removed it if does not drop BUT it does not have to be done immediately so the longer he has it he will hopefully get a bit of testosterone from it.

When it is removed you do not have to have the other one removed if he is still showing signs of anxiety.

Hope he feels better soon

Veterinari · 10/03/2021 19:17

@newuser000

Update!

He has an ear infection in both ears :-( Have some medicine and some anxiety tablets to help. Vet and vet nurse had a good chat and we'll see how he goes.

He also has a ballbag that hasn't dropped so its not been a great news day for him ;-)

Thanks again everyone for your help. I have learned loads from the information you've shared and suggested. I really appreciate it

Good stuff - his sudden reactiveness did suggest pain so an ear infection makes sense Smile

Regardless I think all the other behaviour stuff is very useful too. And agree that the undescended testicle will need to be removed at some point but if he's anxious I'd be tempted to leave his normal testicle in place and see how he gets on. No rush though, he's still young

Claudia84 · 10/03/2021 19:21

Have you seen the dog training and advice support group on Facebook? It’s run by behaviourists. Might be a good thing to look at in the meantime.

SirSniffsAlot · 11/03/2021 13:14

@newuser000

Update!

He has an ear infection in both ears :-( Have some medicine and some anxiety tablets to help. Vet and vet nurse had a good chat and we'll see how he goes.

He also has a ballbag that hasn't dropped so its not been a great news day for him ;-)

Thanks again everyone for your help. I have learned loads from the information you've shared and suggested. I really appreciate it

Great news. Well, not great as he's crook, but good to hear there might be a medical cause behind his worry - one that can be treated.
newuser000 · 12/03/2021 11:34

Thanks @PollyRoulson @Veterinari@SirSniffsAlot I really do appreciate you taking the time to be helpful.

Ear drops are proving fun - NOT! He's a wriggly little thing but I've found the perfect size pot for treats that he can almost wedge his nose in to get the treats while I do the drops!

@Claudia84 I'm not on facebook, I only use instagram and will see if there are any useful accounts on there.

I've printed a poster for the fridge on body language signs for the kids to see and I have watched a few YoubTube tutorials.

OP posts:
Claudia84 · 12/03/2021 12:47

Fab.
I’ve also copied this from a behaviourist page which might help alongside knowing body language to look out for:

There have been a lot of posts lately about fear/aggression issues. I'm going to address the issue in general.

Aggression always (or at least 99.9% of the time) is a fear issue. Just like when we feel threatened we have the choice between fight, flight, and freeze, so do dogs make a similar choice. They may hide behind something and shake, lunge and attack, or just freeze on the spot. In all cases, you want to address the underlying fear, not the behavior. Once you have healed the fear, the behavior will change on its own.

Here are two methods of dealing with fear that work beautifully. Both are ways of associating good things with the trigger (object of fear) and replacing that with the perception that the trigger is threatening.

Open Bar/Closed Bar: As long as the trigger is in sight, chicken (or a very special yummy treat) is being shovelled into the dog's mouth. I also like to "cheerlead" - praise in a happy tone of voice. When the trigger moves out of sight, the chicken and cheering stop.

Click the Trigger: Watch the dog's eyes. As soon as the dog looks at the trigger, click (or use a verbal marker) and immediately hold the chicken to the side of the dog's nose, so that his eye contact is immediately broken to take the treat. Repeat. Repeat.

In both cases, it is ultimately important to start at a distance/level of intensity where your dog notices the trigger, but is not bothered by it. If he's already reacting, you are too close. In both cases, you are working toward getting a "yay, there's the trigger" reaction. Not just tolerance, but happy excitement. Once you get that, you move a teensy bit closer and start again.

If even once during the therapy your dog is placed "over threshold" - where he feels threatened - you have lost your progress. So you may have to change your routine. If you normally walk your dog where there are other dogs who appear too close for comfort, walk elsewhere for a while until your dog is fine with that level of intensity.

If you have your dog out in the house when visitors come and he's upset, put him away before you have visitors in until he is happy to see them.

Best case scenario, locate a force-free trainer who uses these scientific principles of counter-conditioning. Never "correct" a reaction, because you will associate "bad things happen when that trigger is around" and lose your progress. Note that if you get a reaction, YOU made the mistake, not the dog. You're too close.

First place to look for a force-free trainer: petprofessionalguild.com/

Written by the late Leah Roberts (one of the founder admin) in 2012

Quote from Debbie Jacobs Fearfuldogs.com

"I hate to sound flippant when people ask what they need to do to help their fearful dog and I say, stop scaring them. Don't do things to them that scare them. Don't put them into situations that scare them. Don't let other people or dogs scare them. Just stop scaring them.

Once that's accomplished we can move on to the next routine question which is, "But how will they ever learn to be ok if they aren't exposed to the scary thing?" We'll get there, but you can't keep exposing them to the scary thing and having them be scared and think that's going to help them learn to stop being scared by it. It just does not work that way. Sorry. It doesn't.

Figure out how to manage them so they aren't scared.
This may require thinking outside the box, doing something for awhile that you hope to not need to do forever. It may not be simple or convenient. It may mean you need to reassess your willingness or ability to help the dog.

Among the unfortunate things anyone handling a fearful dog can do is try to rush them, make matters worse and then decide that since that didn't work, the dog needs to go to someone else. Any odds the dog had in their favor may be decreased or eliminated."

Claudia84 · 12/03/2021 12:49

And this:

Dogs who bark and lunge at other dogs or people are often very worried dogs. It can be a really big challenge to live with a reactive dog who is struggling with triggers and walks. There are a lot of myths out there too which don’t help.

❎Myth - You aren’t firm enough with your dog.

I hear this one very frequently of late. People contacting me with reactive dogs, under the impression that it is because they were “too soft” with their dogs or not firm enough. The reality is that reactivity has very little to do with rules or firmness. Reactivity is generally an emotional response, that needs addressing to ensure the dog becomes more confident. Being “firm” or harsh often has the opposite effect.

❎Myth - Your rescue must have been abused.

Alot of people assume their reactive rescue dog must have been abused if they are nervous, and jumpy. However this isn’t strictly true. The dogs reactivity could have been a reason for surrender, or they might have had a bad experience with their trigger or even simply poor genetics. Sometimes there is no obvious reason too. Its important not to dwell on a rescue dogs past, instead focus on their future and how you can work together as a team.

❎Myth- Your dog is protecting you.

Dogs are masters of self preservation in the main. They tend to react to help themselves rather than to help you. While it is true, certain breeds might display guarding instincts or protection in the right circumstances, if a dog is regularly reacting to triggers, it is unlikely to be about you. Your dog is more concerned about themselves.

❎Myth- Your dog needs socialisation.

Reactive dogs who are anxious, or learning appropriate manners do NOT need to be “socialised” around their triggers in a traditional sense. The critical socialisation period ends when a dog is still a puppy, beyond that a dog who develops reactivity issues needs careful and considerate exposure to boost positive experiences. Often the worst thing you can do is take them on “pack walks” or offlead sessions. These will likely just flood your dog and make the issue worse.

✅ Fact - Your reactive dog is having a hard time.

A reactive dog is one who needs a careful plan and action to help them learn that they don’t need to react to triggers, and they do not need to worry so much. They need patience and understanding. Short cuts will interrupt progress. A modern dog trainer or behaviourist will be able to help you learn to read your dog, make plans to succeed and help you in your progress to help both you and your dog become more confident.

With thanks to [https://www.facebook.com/WaggingWonders](www.facebook.com/WaggingWonders)
copyright Wagging Wonders Lincoln

newuser000 · 19/03/2021 14:23

thanks for the cut and pasta @Claudia84

Just wanted to give an update - he is much happier and more settled. I think we had a perfect storm of routine change, new daytime location, people whilst having the ear infection in both ears. He's been fab all week in the office, not a grumble at anyone. At home the growling when the kids come down and disturbed his sleep has radically reduced - only happened once this week (on a day he didn't get usual walks and naps).

Thanks again for the help and advice.

OP posts:
newuser000 · 19/03/2021 14:24

patsa? ovs meant paste but pasta would be nice, I'm fed up of cooking ;-)

OP posts:
Ihaventgottimeforthis · 19/03/2021 14:46

Great update OP, brilliant to hear.

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