Border collie. Too much??

[TheYeti]

Just had confirmation that I'm not going back to the office. My job is completely flexible and I can work when I want. I've always wanted a dog but only now is it a real possibility. We have 2 DC, 10 & 8 and 2 cats (and a few ferrets but they live outside in a big shed). We live quite rurally so plenty of space for walking.

Before he died, DF used to have dogs and my favourite were his two border collies. I really want one. I want an intelligent dog who is up for some training beyond "sit" and some long walks. I'm home alone all day so really want a dog who'll enjoy plenty of interaction. I'd like a decent sized dog, I really don't like small yappy dogs. I'm also not fond of too much drooling... I know that's weird but DF had a lab who drooled every meal time and it really grossed me out.

So I think on paper a border collie sounds great but I'm also aware they're alot of work and although I've been around dogs, I'm a first time dog owner. I don't know of many dog breeds and whether there's something else out there that would be a better fit. Should I go for something a bit "easier" first?

It's been 10 years since I had my last bc put to sleep.
I've not had once since due to my lifestyle but plan to get one again when my lifestyle allows. Its the only breed I'll have again.

If you're active and get training done properly early on you'll be fine. Typically I used to walk 8 to 10 miles a day in addition to ball games with them.
I used to set up agility jumps (completely make shift out if garden junk) and trained them to do that, just for pure fun. They learn fast and are so loyal too.

I really miss my girls. You sound like you'd make a good bc owner. My heart weeps when I see people walk them around the block quickly after a 9 hour day at work. That's not good for most breeds, but seems so cruel on a bc. I see it here now (I live more urban currently, hence no bc for me right now).

I also see a couple on my lockdown walks every day with theirs, they walk a good few miles of one of my daily routes and they spend at least an hour on the field playing fetch/ball etc. It gives me such joy to watch their collie in action. I can stand and watch for ages.

I hope you find a lovely pup to love and nurture and have plenty of fun and walks with.

@Flamerouge ❤ love your dog.

We have a 8mth old collie. He's lovely but has a lot of energy. He has the utility room with garden access when we are out or eating dinner as he will snaffle food and loves to chew if bored. Since putting in the dog flap he takes himself outside for a run and play. He needs at least an hours walk/ ball and catch a day.
He has been excellent with training which is all done by ourselves as the course we booked keeps being postponed due to covid!!

He's such a lovely dog around our children and they help ware him out by running around! He then tries to sleep in my lap like our cats in the eve!! 🤦‍♀️

I wouldn’t just get a collie because labradors drool and you want a dog that can do more than ‘sit’. We had a collie growing up and he was a wonderful dog and it’s easy to see why you want to replicate that experience you had. Despite having a collie growing up, I’d personally never get one.

Any dog can be trained to do more than ‘sit’, it’s the willingness of the owners not just the breed. Our dog training has lots of different types of dogs all being trained to do more than sit. There are more working dogs but I think that’s because people who get working dogs know they need more stimulation. I’d get a dog that is happy with your activity levels, rather than trying to match the dogs activity level. You can then do so much with the dog without having to make sure you get that level in every day. So before lockdown we would try to take our dog to agility sessions which would be once a month. One the day we were taking her to agility we could do a smaller walk and she’d be fine until the evening, then work in a different way but the weeks it wasn’t on we could still do her normal walk with her.

@DitchedBitch thank you. It’s been tough, but feeling like it’s coming together. Lockdown, adolescent rescue pup, no face-to-face training and winter! All slowly changing for the better.

@InTheNightWeWillWish I totally understand what you're saying and want to reassure you that this is a decision I'm taking care over.

I think it works both ways, as in, you have to be a good match for the dog and it has to be a good match for you. I don't think we'd suit a greyhound as we're an active family who love cycling, hiking, going to the park, me and my son do cross country running etc and I don't think a greyhound could cope. We live a stones throw from the trans Pennine way and fields so plenty of opportunities for daily runs/ games.

Assuming we go ahead, I'm also wondering whether we should get a puppy or a rescue/"failed sheepdog"? My instinct is for a puppy so we know it's history/breeding as much as possible but don't want to write off a rescue

Going to the park is not a given with a collie. Footballs, tennis courts great for the herding dog. Collies are not the most sociable dogs with other dogs so parks can be their idea of hell.

If you go for a rescue dog you can see before you buy. You can see what it is like and what you are dealing with

A puppy who knows? - they are not clean slates. Generation of epigenetics has gone into the puppy and you can not see the result of these until the puppy is older.

How the bitch was treated whilst pregnant and how the puppies are raised will all mark the slate and the dog you are getting. All out of your control and not noticeably until the puppy grows.

So loads of research for either option but more if getting a puppy. Health tests are easy to prove but temperment is much harder.

We had one and he was my best friend growing up. He was quirky though and used to try and herd us round the garden

They are pretty high energy and need a lot of walking but it sounds like you are up for that

Also he was a big softy, very sociable and lovable - I miss him a lot and he's been gone 10 years!

@TheYeti I wasn’t necessarily recommending a greyhound. I don’t agree with the MN mentality that everyone is suited to rescuing a greyhound. We don’t have a greyhound and I don’t think greyhounds will suit our lifestyles but there are a number of breeds between border collies and greyhounds. All of which can do more than ‘sit’.

So if you’re a stones throw from the trans Pennine way other things you need to consider with a border collie would be sheep on walks. Border collies ideally need off lead time but you won’t be able to let them off near livestock. No dog should be off lead near livestock but even a ‘failed’ sheepdog could still have strong herding instinct and stronger than other breeds.

So if you’re a stones throw from the trans Pennine way other things you need to consider with a border collie would be sheep on walks. Border collies ideally need off lead time but you won’t be able to let them off near livestock. No dog should be off lead near livestock but even a ‘failed’ sheepdog could still have strong herding instinct and stronger than other breeds
First of all, NO dog should ever be loose around livestock so that absolutely isn’t a purely collie problem.

Secondly, if OP is rural, there may well be sheepdog trainers locally who can help her livestock train the dog to be reliable and not approach

bigwolf I said no dog should be off lead near livestock. You’ve even highlighted that part in bold in your comment, literally the last sentence that you’ve highlighted I didn’t say it was just a collie problem but I did say that even a ‘failed’ sheepdog, which OP mentions, could still have stronger herding instincts than your average dog. Whilst that could be trained out over time, that is definitely something that OP will need to be aware of until the dog is trained and can reliably leave livestock. Even when trained, it should still never be left off lead near livestock, a well trained dog can still follow their instincts over their training. In the short term, she may need to adjust her walks with the dog to ensure the dog gets enough stimulation without worrying sheep. The pure fact that she’s rural doesn’t mean there aren’t challenges to her getting a dog or things she needs to be aware of.

I have a bc. Also first time owner. Honestly he's the best thing! Doesn't moult much, doesn't really bark at anything (grew up with terriers so this was a shock), super friendly to ppl and other dogs, doesn't smell as much as other dogs (e.g lab), easy to train. We are an active household and i have nothing to compare it to but he has at least 2 hours of walking a day with two or three days with an extra 2hr walk thrown in. However he copes fine with less. He does need to be around ppl so I wouldn't want to work away from home. In conclusion, everyone warned me about crazy border collies but he's chilled, gorgeous and I'm smitten!

My vote would be a Toller too!!

I have collies (one at the moment). I haven't had any other dog types, but have very good friends who do, and sometimes walk other people's and have them to stay while they're on hols etc.

Collies are different to other dogs imho. They are fiercely intelligent. I talk in sentences to my dog and she understands what I'm asking (way beyond sit/stay/roll over etc). Some of them understand verbs/concepts - not sure I'm using the right words - but things like 'take the ball to the teddy', and 'put the ball in the box'. This intelligence needs a lot of exercising, by you. They can also be prone to overthinking, which means that things other dogs just accept as 'that is what it is', a collie might think 'that's really unnatural, I must bark at that for hours'.

The other issue with their intelligence is that they decide when to obey. They are highly trainable, and you can get them to a point where they are 99.9% obedient, but literally every time you command them to do something, they decide if it's worth their while. They do like to please, so are obedient most of the time, but if there's that very tempting sheep up ahead / that favourite doggy friend over there, etc, they might decide that their wants trump yours on this occasion. They are not slaves to their obedience.

Collies require physical exercise yes, and it's very good that you live in the countryside, but mostly it's their brains you need to work out. They are happiest when they have jobs to do. Assume you are not going to work the dog with sheep or you wouldn't be on here asking! So maybe you need to do a lot of agility stuff or similar. Most collies wouldn't be happy sleeping in a corner all day while you work, even if you're in the same room as them. If you don't have a serious plan for collie 'entertainment' you will quite possibly end up with a neurotic collie, whose only purpose in life is to dig up the garden/bark at cars/chew his tail.

Collies are usually friends with everyone in the family, but they often pick a favourite. That will likely be you if you are with it all day. They might not properly obey others, or might just tolerate petting from the kids but not really enjoy it. They're all different in this respect though.

They are wonderful dogs if you know what you're doing, and you have the time and resources to look after them properly. Personally, I wouldn't advise anyone to get them as a first dog.

If your wants list is just no drooling/cleverish/not yappy, there are loads of great dogs to choose from! Any medium size dog will love long walks. If you're super keen to get a collie really soon, how about an older non-collie rescue (that's good with cats and ferrets!) to learn some dog skills first? Then a collie pup after?

^^ This with bells on excellent post *FeistySheep.

I think the Collies are different to other dogs imho is so important to understand. You are not getting a dog you are getting a living being that is an intelligent as a 7 year old. Would a 7 year old sit happily in the corner whilst you work all day?

OP it may help you to list out how you plan your days to look like with a collie and we can help see if that may work for you.

My aunt has a Border Collie and she is such a lovely dog. She was a rescue and had some issues which they have worked hard at. She wouldn't be trusted around cats but then she wasn't raised with them. She does get up very early in the morning but generally isn't a high energy dog. In her younger days she did agility and has always been with my aunt or my Nan during the day for company. She has a very sweet nature and is incredibly gentle. I've NEVER heard her bark and she's 13. I see several Border Collies on the rec where we live and they are very ball and owner focussed. I saw a man tell his dog to sit, then he walked away so a child could stroke the dog and he could adhere to the 2m rule and the dog just sat there. So very well trained. Wish I could say the same for my terrier!

The description of the collie assessing whether they want to accept your command each time made me laugh and is very accurate!
We have had two, both working dogs for our farm. They are definitely happiest working and the comments about them tending to bond with one person are also true.
I have known 3 very happy in non working situations and in all cases the owner has been very proactive about exercising them and doing things such as agility. I think it can work but you need to go in with your eyes open.
Temperament wise they also vary and it is a bit pot luck, although obviously if you research parents etc that will give some idea.
Our first bc was very neurotic and highly strung and whilst fine in a situation where he was working, he would have been a nightmare in a family house. Our second is massively friendly, loves people and food as well as farm work and with enough exercise would probably be fine in a family house situation. Good luck with the decision and research.

I was also after a collie because I've grown up with various breeds and they have been my favourite. But was worried about some of the neurotic behaviour collies can develop, particularly chasing cars and herding.
I got a collie x cocker and he is a dream. Very trainable and intelligent. He basically lives for me and the ball, and spends a lot of time trying to figure out what I want. He doesn't run away off lead, amazing recall, sits and waits when I tell him (I make him do this for cyclists/runners/horseriders).
He's an amazing dog, he needs a lot of attention and a couple of good walks a day but otherwise perfect.
Have had German pointers as a child and they are also lovely but in my experience will run off and can get themselves into dangerous situations because they are loons

To be fair many breeds can be trained to do more than sit lol, even breeds you don't expect to are really clever and can be trained really well.

My friend has a duck tolling retriever, really smart and really active, pretty chilled by 18 months old indoors, very hectic for at least a year though. Recall not amazing isntantly due to their general nature but will come back evenutally. Beautiful dog to look at also, not massive either. My friend said in hindsight she probably would have got a lab as it was really hard work for quite some time but now the work has been put in he is truly lovely and would definitely love to have the outdoor space you have mentioned.

Border Collies are great, really intelligent dogs. But you have to be prepared to allow them to use their instincts and give them an outlet for their “herding.”
BCs that don’t have that will herd cars, people, nip ankles and be prone to shadow chasing amongst other issues. So I think if you work really hard to understand the breed and its needs you’ll be fine.
IMO all dogs are hard work - but a border collie is on another scale because they’re not has far removed from their original role as a herder. Your 8 and 10 year olds may get the brunt of the nipping.
I really don’t want to put you off but I do think there are other dogs you could have that still are super intelligent working type dogs that might suit your life better. Working dogs are used to stop and go so it might be tough if you have a busy house for them to switch off (think dog that is bred to be either in a barn or in the fields ).
That being said, a spaniel could be easier - even a working type one. However you will have to put the children’s toys out of reach as they want to carry everything and you can encourage resource guarding if not dealt with in the right way. they’re super intelligent but not as intelligent as a BC and if you like a long walk (you need them off lead really but you can take them off lead literally from day one and train recall to a whistle - they are bred to run, stop, sit and wait for instruction. They’re great with kids. )

Final thing I’ll say (as I can talk about this for ages!) is don’t confuse being able to work from home as making it easier to be a dog owner. They will love you being there but won’t understand that you can’t play every hour of the day. With a puppy you’ll be on a really important call with it handing off your ankle and clothing, and forget about having one set of headphones. You’ll need to be able to be a bit flexible with your day so you can stop and do a little game with them a few times a day.
I WFH with my little Sprocker who is the best (but I really disliked as a puppy for the above reasons!) and I still send him to daycare twice a week, and have a dog walker for him the other three days and I take him out in the morning (and evening if needs. I’m lucky to be able to do that but means I can have days where I GSD and also means we could take time with his alone training. That sort of thing does need to be factored in.

Thanks everyone for your experiences and suggestions. DH and I have decided to go for it, we know it'll be tough but we're completely up for putting the work in and doing the best we can for our future pup. We won't get everything right first time but we feel as forewarned as we can be

DH and I have decided to go for it
👍

we know it'll be tough
I think you might be pleasantly surprised.
They are lovely dogs.

Just to add my lab not drool and does way more than just sit etc
There is a reason often used by guide dogs/dogs for disabled
But the hair is a Downside

We often walk 8-10 miles a day sometimes more

I know you mentioned you're not keen on labs due to drooling... I have a lab/border collie cross... and he's such a lovely mix (I realise that with crosses you don't really know what you'll end up with) with no drool, no herding and the ability to stop and settle for a couple of hours at a stretch (I too work from home)... our day is broken up into a morning walk, he then settles until about 12 when I take my lunch and do 40 minutes of training and play with him he then settles again until 5 when either we do a gentle sniffing potter around the neighbourhood, the home for some training/play and that gets rounded off with scentwork and dinner around 6:30 after which he settles... come 9:20 (on the button) he comes to us to go to bed... so outside, carrot, bedtime biscuit - into his crate and he sleeps through to about 6:30/7... some evenings we do structured online training (we've found trick training classes quite good as we run out of ideas!).

A couple of the collie points above to ring true with him - particularly the - he'll learn what he wants to and not what he doesn't want to! But we have found any form of scent work to be a life changer with him...

As with all dogs, it's not all sunny and perfect... he is a voracious chewer... not of the house/furniture/shoes etc or anything that has not explicitly been given to him (we make a bit ceremony when giving toys, bones, chew toys etc so he knows its his) he can decimate a yak chew in about 40 minutes and we've have abandoned soft toys completely. He also jumps like a kangaroo at really unexpected moments... he greets people in a really nice manner, all low level waits for the pats, calms down and then sometimes, very unexpectedly will leap off the ground clearing about 1.5 feet...(it's a work in progress in training!)

In summary... I'm so pleased we went for the mix of the two as we've ended up with the nicest parts of both breeds...