Challenging Springer

[madspringer]

I posted almost a year ago about our hard to handle working strain Springer, and got some excellent advice. Whilst things have improved in many ways, he is almost two and still so challenging, and I'm on the lookout for advice/support/help!

He is very good and relaxed at home, but it's as though being outside in any environment is just too much for him. We have been trying to teach loose lead walking for almost two years (!) and it still hasn't clicked for him. We can't just walk to the shop or round the block as he gets himself so overwrought and pulls and whines. He is incredibly vocal and will scream and wail - when waiting to cross the road this morning he sounded as though he was being tortured!

He has also started getting himself worked up in the car (again, lots of whining and barking and wailing), so if we try and drive a short distance to let him have a longer walk, by the time we get there he is so stressed and upset that he has no focus or control on his walk, and we end up feeling frustrated and cut the walk short to avoid him rehearsing unwanted behaviours.

We dreamed of having a dog for years and I'm just despairing. We have paid out for trainers (stopped due to Covid), done multiple Absolute Dogs courses and read books by lots of force free gundog trainers (Pippa Mattinson, Jo Laurens, Jane Arden) and tried to implement these techniques. But it still feels as though we have a feral dog whose 'bucket' is about the size of a thimble. Can anyone offer any advice? Will it get better as he ages, or is neutered? We just don't know what to do.

They take a long time to grow up do springers. I think about 4 years old is when they often start to calm a bit. But just a bit. And they are all individuals so your own mileage may vary

I think I might think about giving you and the dog a bit of a break here and attempt to find one walk, always the same, that you can do without this being such a strain. For that I'd use the (often advised) private field hire.

They are all over the country and you will have one within driving distance. I'd be tempted to book it 2-3 times a week. Drive there, yes he will get very excited, but when you get there he can go off lead, there wil be no one else there so excitement levels etc will be lower than walks with lots of people and dogs - but the field will stink of other dogs so he can spend time sniffing all the lovely smells and running around.

That's 2-3 walks a week where you can relax because you don't have to hold onto the lead, the dog is safe and no one is going to cause an embarassment. He'll still need other walks but you have some times here when you (and he) can just enjoy the time without it being a pita.

I think, alongside this, I might try to train the dog to do something useful. Such as retrieve then carry a dummy. Start at home, then the garden, then the hired field before trying it out in thre wild. But if you can convince him to carry something, he cannot scream at the same time and it gives him a focus point while on a street walk.

I'd also look at scentwork - sniffing calms dogs down and it's one of the things springers do well. Is there ways this can be harnessed and used?

Not saying all/any of this would work - but these are the kinds of things I'd be exploring in your shoes? Anything resonate?

I have never once met a calm (and healthy) springer spaniel

• What are you using to walk him? Is he on a traditional collar/lead combination or do you use some form of harness? A harness with two D rings and a double-ended lead should help with the pulling, or you can try a head collar. I know they draw some controversy on MN but they can be lifesaver when you have a determined puller. You need to be able to be safe when you walk your dog.

• Have you ever done positive association training with the car? Or is it possible he's actually carsick? You could speak to your vet about car-sickness medication if it's the latter. Also, how does he travel in the car? Is he in a crate, the boot or on the back seat? Is he perhaps over-stimulated with what he can see out of the windows?

For now, I would honestly stop walking him around the block or to the shop. If you're just popping out for an hour, leave him at home and do his walk separately. I'm a huge believer in walks being all about the dog, not you - so if you have to do errands or go to the shops, do that on your own and make the walk all about the dog.

Have you tried a 1:1 gundog trainer? You might find one prepared to take you now as a welfare issue.

I'm sure you've been told that springers are clever and to work with the dogs natural instincts etc, letting him hunt for tennis balls in long grass etc. If you've tried those things without success, you probably need to see an experienced trainer who knows the breed to set you on the right track.

Thanks for the replies!

We have used a private field with him previously, and I think this could help again and give us all a break, so thanks for the reminder

We were using a flat collar for loose lead walking up until about a week ago, but we've started using his Perfect Fit harness with a double ended lead as we're just so exhausted by trying to train loose lead walking. We have a canny collar that we've also used in desperation in the past, but he hates this and gets himself so wound up he's very anxious and unsettled after using it - even after trying to introduce it in small doses. If he is physically restrained from being able to steam ahead whilst walking he flings himself around and lunges and this then results in more whining and frustration.

He is very clever and picks up on all sorts of walk cues, even if we try and hide them - if we get in the car to go to, for example, the vets, he will be completely calm as we don't have walking boots/wellies on and don't have a treat pouch belt, and he doesn't really know the route. Even if we try and hide walk cues, e.g. putting boots in the car and wearing normal shoes out to the car, and taking the treat pouch out to the car in advance, he knows the route to our local 'safe' walk and is very vocal and we will arrive at the walk (about 5 mins drive) shaking and trembling, so he's over threshold before we've even started walking. If we drive through rural spaces he will get very wound up, so he is definitely overstimulated by what he can see through the windows. He's on the back seat with a harness/clip.

Although we try and manage his behaviour with tennis balls, retrieving, scentwork etc, we are obviously missing something and he is just so wired! I am looking for a positive gundog trainer near us (Sussex), but to be honest have found very few reply to requests. Apologies if I seem negative - I'm just feeling very despondent today after a simple trip to the park ended in tears! We put in so much time with him but I feel we are regressing further each week and he is becoming almost impossible to manage out of the house.

We did go to a gundog trainer about a year ago, but they were so heavy handed with him it put me off. He is very sensitive, and him being jerked around on a slip lead was distressing for us and him. The trainers assured us they used positive methods, but they didn't line up with our idea of positive training at all. We didn't go back and I'm a bit wary of using any gundog trainer now, and I'm also struggling to get a response from those who do look like they use positive or force free methods.

Please don't continue to walk him on a collar/lead - if he pulls as much as you say, he could do real damage to his neck and throat. He needs to be in a harness. The flinging himself around just sounds like a bit of a teenage tantrum to me - what happens if you just ignore it and stop walking when he does it? So he only gets to walk/move when he's calm.

For the car, I would try the Victoria Stilwell technique of blacking out the windows - personally I would crate him in the boot (and cover the crate) so has no visual stimuli and can't see what's going on or where you're going. The barking/whining in the back has the potential to be really dangerous if it makes you jump.

I'm sorry you're struggling though

Do you think he could be so wound up because he simply isn't being exercised enough? We have a 4yo Springer and we off lead walk for 5 miles each day minimum, split into a morning and evening walk. During this time I'd say our Springer probably runs 15-20miles up and down the hedges chasing every blackbird possible and running nose down sniffing everywhere.
I'd definitely find somewhere where your dog can be off lead for a good hour or two a day, so if the private field worked well before then definitely revisit. While there you can work on recall training and walking behaviour. And I'm sure you do already but make sure everyone walking the dog uses the exact same words for required actions.
Eg Here- for dog to return, wait-for dog to stop and in our case a loud distinctive whistle to recall from across a field.
Working dogs need to be worked so wearing them out physically and mentally is important so they are happily snoring their heads off with all legs up in the air when home again.

I did wonder about exercise, but he seems to tip into just not being able to control himself about 30 mins. Beyond that time, he can't listen to cues and will start sprinting along hedgerows/field edges and yelping, which I've read as overstimulation? It's like he tips over into a state where he can't calm himself down, so we try and restrict behaviours but then we get frustrated whining and round and round we go! He's then very tired when he gets home and will sleep deeply.

We'll definitely give the private field another go and maybe just remove all other expectations for a week or so to let us all calm down.

I adore him and he's such a good boy at home, but it's like he has no resilience outside. I was expecting a challenge with an active breed, but this is beyond anything we anticipated!

Re flat collar - we are insistent that he walks nicely on this, but that's why it gets so exhausting. After two years he can only manage a few metres before he wants to pull ahead again! If allowed to pull in his harness his breathing sounds awful, as I think the chest plate is so tight against his chest, he's such a strong puller and will literally scrabble forward. The headcollar is the only thing that stops his pulling, but he gets so upset by it. I'll look up Victoria Stillwell's advice about the car windows, that sounds like it could work for us, thanks for the tip!

Two things stand out from your updates

1. He's smart. I'd look for more ways to use that brain of his, in the house at first. Trick training that you can then move to outside walks. For exmaple, we practised an emergency 'stay' at a distance inside the house and quote often do it now on walks - just for the 'fun' of it. It means my dog keeps focus on me because we are actively doing something together for a few seconds but also means I have that training there if we ever really need it. Some things we just learn for the fun of learning - and because the more the dog learns the easier they find learning, generally. e.g. fetching my keys or a pair of socks.

1. You're in tears. That means walks are stressful for everyone without anyone doing anything. (It's understandable so not meant as a dig.). Springers (and lots of other dogs) can be pretty sensitive to stress and this will not help. A dog that is worried can sometimes look like a dog that is over excited or badly behaved - but the root is anxiety. All the more reason to find ways, such as the field, to have at least a few stress free walks. Walks where you can all breathe, relax and just enjoy each other's company again.

We'll definitely give the private field another go and maybe just remove all other expectations for a week or so to let us all calm down.

Sounds sensible

@madspringer it's on YouTube - look up "It's Me or the Dog - Dylan the Great Dane Villain". The full episode is on there.

The window thing is definately worth a go but I would not be surprised if the dog just transfers the excitement to other stimuli, such as the smell or movement of the car.

@SirSniffsAlot interesting point - I do think he must be able to smell when we've hidden our boots and treat pouch in the car boot, as he still seems to work out we're going for a walk!

Still worth trying - even if it just gives you a couple weeks peace/break

Not sure if anyone linked this last time you posted, but just so that you know you're not alone...

totallygundogs.com/the-trouble-with-springers-part-one/

Sympathies as I have a similarly behaved cocker spaniel. He’s tons better if he can have a good off lead run at least once a day and I find he is more focused on walks if he has a ‘job’. Whether that’s carrying his ball, an old glove anything like that helps. Throwing a few small treats in the grass a little way in front of him and asking him to find them is also a favourite. As a PP has also said, he also picks up on my mood and the more relaxed I am the more relaxed he is.

No advice sorry .....just clicked on thread as I grew up with a springer......happy memories!!.....she never really grew up.....was mad as a box of frogs til she died at age 14..... hope you find some answers

We've got a working cocker and a sprocker.

Neither will walk with any hint of manners unless on a figure of 8 lead. They are both obsessed with chasing birds and lose all sense of hearing when they're on a chase. Both need a good hour long run morning and afternoon off lead.

They're not "easy" dogs to own, training can never stop and they're always trying to be one step ahead of you. We never leave the house without bells on the cocker's collar (he disappears into hedges), and the sprocker has to go on lead if we met people or dogs as she barks aggressively (she's nervous as hell). We always have a tennis ball and a squeaky toy as that's what they'll come back to us for.

My cousin has got 4 springers (he's mad), and only copes with them by running about 10 miles a day with them.

@madspringer there are so many positives in your posts. The main one being how YOU totally get your dog.

I would agree about the dog being over threshold after 30mins of exercise if this is when his crazier behaviour starts.Cut all walks down to 25mins.

I would cut down on all walks outside for several days. Increase the calmer scenting activities in your own garden for a while or even do nothing for a bit. He may be adrenaline charged to start with but this will drop off.

Increase scatter feeding at home,introduce loads of healthy natural chews. If he likes balls then hide balls, gently roll the ball to him but no chasing. Scentwork scentwork and more scentwork will help a lot and I mean a lot. Anything you can think to get him to scent before he gets it will calm him and tire him out. Alongside chewing but he may still be a bit uptight for chewing at the moment.

Have a few days off enjoying each others company and not trying to fix things -it is exhausting for you all.

Re pulling on the lead. Spaniels walk quickly way quicker than us and they scent things as they pass which they just HAVE to investigate I would speak to perfect fit and let them help you get the correct size harness -they are great and will keep sending you pieces until you get the right fit. Make sure you have a d ring on the chest and on the back of the harness.

I would work on heel work at home in the house to start with and not have a lead on at all.Just reward your dog for being by your leg you do not even have to move just frequently throughout the day reward for being by your side or slightly behind you.

I would also try a covered crate in the car - spaniels are movement driven as well as scent so this may help (or not but worth a try)

You could spend hours putting on your walking boots and getting in the car and then getting out again and coming back indoors etc but I think it would be better just to work on basic calmness indoors and shorter calm walks to start with to see what happens.

I totally agree about gundog trainers positive trainers are hard to find and also gundog trainers do seem to disagree about positive training anyway. There is a great one in Surrey maybe a bit too far from you?

The other place to try is Sussex County Dog Training .Not specifically gundog trainers but positive experienced trainers who will help you find what works for you. They cover many disciplines scentwork,tricks,behaviour, agility etc and would really be able to help you. Again depends where is Sussex you are

My mum’s springer is a bit like that (ok on lead but still pulls), she is 7. But she needs big long off lead walks every day where she can just run.

Growing up we had a very chilled out springer, but looking back she grew up in a full busy house full of kids and visitors, and had at least one 2 hour walk every day through the woods or park off lead, plus several short walks. Weekends we would easily walk her for 3-4 hours.

Springers need to burn off that energy and need to sprint around off the lead.

@SirSniffsAlot I have read that and felt reassured... But I was also so sure when we got him that he'd be perfectly managed and behaved😂

@PollyRoulson thank you for the link - I'll look them up!

It's reassuring to hear others have spaniels who struggle with lead walking! Loose lead walking is definitely hard to teach a spaniel, I feel such envy when I see other people's dogs trotting along nicely to heel!

I would love to be able to walk him for 3-4 hours, but he would honestly lose his mind. He's so highly strung and would just be out of control and unresponsive. He loves to just sprint up and down and always has to be moving at fast speeds, and I think he exhausts himself so quickly compared to friends' spaniels who range around sniffing.

But sprinting up and down the hedgerows is what they're meant to do and love doing so why is this a problem? Is it because he doesn't come back?
This is how my Springer wears herself out, if she spots a blackbird, well she basically takes flight too! And yips excitedly when it lands in a hedge close by. It's not that she is out of control or overstimulated, she's just having a ball! But then if I say her name (or whistle) to recall, she will, so I can't break her prey drive instinct and refocus.
But running full pelt up and down and in and out of the bushes in fields is absolutely fine and just them burning their energy.
Find a secure field and let him have his mad hour, you'll probably find he is a lot calmer on the lead back and on the drive home and probably won't make a peep. Our Springer is super whimpery when we rock up to a destination as she just knows something fun is about to happen...a bit like how our kids get excited and loud too. It's just what they do

I would love to be able to walk him for 3-4 hours, but he would honestly lose his mind. He's so highly strung and would just be out of control and unresponsive. He loves to just sprint up and down and always has to be moving at fast speeds, and I think he exhausts himself so quickly compared to friends' spaniels who range around sniffing.

But that's what working springers do. You're never going to breed their instinct out of them.

Not breed, train - sorry!

@Tash6000 The issue with him sprinting around and losing focus isn't that I don't want to him to do what Springers do, it's that I lose control of him when he gets into that mode. He gets so overwrought that he can't focus on me anymore, and if I can't trust him to pay attention to me then it's not safe to walk him, or fair on others.

@sunflowersandbuttercups - Springers who are worked are kept under close control though, which is what we're struggling with. I don't work him, but if he was on a shoot he'd soon get kicked off! If he quartered nicely in front of us and sniffed around I'd be thrilled, but we're not there yet.