Challenging Springer

[madspringer]

I posted almost a year ago about our hard to handle working strain Springer, and got some excellent advice. Whilst things have improved in many ways, he is almost two and still so challenging, and I'm on the lookout for advice/support/help!

He is very good and relaxed at home, but it's as though being outside in any environment is just too much for him. We have been trying to teach loose lead walking for almost two years (!) and it still hasn't clicked for him. We can't just walk to the shop or round the block as he gets himself so overwrought and pulls and whines. He is incredibly vocal and will scream and wail - when waiting to cross the road this morning he sounded as though he was being tortured!

He has also started getting himself worked up in the car (again, lots of whining and barking and wailing), so if we try and drive a short distance to let him have a longer walk, by the time we get there he is so stressed and upset that he has no focus or control on his walk, and we end up feeling frustrated and cut the walk short to avoid him rehearsing unwanted behaviours.

We dreamed of having a dog for years and I'm just despairing. We have paid out for trainers (stopped due to Covid), done multiple Absolute Dogs courses and read books by lots of force free gundog trainers (Pippa Mattinson, Jo Laurens, Jane Arden) and tried to implement these techniques. But it still feels as though we have a feral dog whose 'bucket' is about the size of a thimble. Can anyone offer any advice? Will it get better as he ages, or is neutered? We just don't know what to do.

I sympathise with you. We too have a working strain springer and just like yours is fantastic at home but can be a nightmare out and about.

We are very lucky we have loads of woods and fields in walking distance to our house so he gets lots of off lead exercise. When ob lead he is a nightmare and pulls like crazy. If we go into a town it’s hard work.

Our problem is if we go to the beach or go for a family picnic he does not want to sit still . He will bark and bark wanting us to throw a ball or stick constantly. We go Cornwall every year and he honestly will not rest the whole day we are at the beach. It is very stressful! He also runs up to strangers wanting to play fetch with them, dropping balls at their feet. I’ve seen behaviourists but he’s just not interested in food treats when outside.

I wonder if having some training to do would help? Some sort of work like scent training, flyball or agility. If I had the time and money I would definitely do something like this with my dog. Both his parents were proper gundogs and I feel he needs to ‘work’ but like I said at home he’s great and usually on walks, it’s just if we stop anywhere.

I have to say I’m starting to think that he was just never meant to be a nice family pet that comes on picnics with us and sits nicely while the kids play in the park but I’ll keep working on the training.

I hope you find a trainer that can help you.

Springers who are worked are kept under close control though, which is what we're struggling with. I don't work him, but if he was on a shoot he'd soon get kicked off! If he quartered nicely in front of us and sniffed around I'd be thrilled, but we're not there yet

I think you're unlikely to get there on your own. There's a reason lots of people don't recommend working dogs as family pets - the working/prey drive can be impossible to overcome unless you have hours and hours of time to dedicate to training.

I do think owning a working dog and not working it in some way is going to make life really difficult - simply because the average pet owner often doesn't have the time or resources to train a working dog in the right way.

As a dog walker, all the working strain dogs I know have "jobs" - some do canicross, others participate in agility or flyball, others go to work on shoots or work as farm dogs. The only ones who don't work anymore have been retired due to age or injury.

I also have working breed (a beagle) and he comes to work with me everyday and is on the go for probably 2-3 hours. He's on the go constantly in that time - running, scent-hunting, playing, training recall - it's the only way to keep him calm.

@Hlglu56 ours is just like this - we took him to Cornwall last summer and he was just the same, he can't be still at all and just whines and works himself up. We've booked a holiday for this year but have decided to leave him with his dog walker as it's too stressful when he's there. Not quite how I envisioned dog ownership!

We're doing Absolute Dogs boundary games at the moment, which might help you, but it is such hard work trying to get him to be calm and still. I really feel your pain - it's hard work!

My working springer spaniel is 7 and still pulls on the lead. Modern strains of working gundog breeds rarely make such a noise though. It is absolutely unwanted behaviour out shooting (and will get the dog immediately disqualified from any trial) and has a strong genetic component.

When I first started training my dog, the trainer said it's recall, recall, recall so that must be reliable - mine only gets a tennis ball as a reward, not to play with nor chase mindlessly with the associated hysterical barking. Then it's stop, stop, stop, so you have brakes. Whistles are the best way of teaching these but it takes time to go through the different stages. By the time we had finished with the trainer, I felt I could train him to do anything.

Just walking, even for hours, is really not enough for working spaniels. Like Border collies they need their minds occupied too, to tire them out and calm them down. The best gundog training book I read, much of which is applicable to spaniels too, is 'Retriever Training ' by Susan Scales. I think it's out of print but it's worth tracking down. Another excellent resource is 'Gundogs - their learning chain' by Joe Irving, which is about how dogs learn and so how best to teach them.

Ok - I do feel your pain OP - but I have to say take heart - I have had many dogs including 3 Springers from 3 completely different sources. All 3 were fabulous dogs with only minor irritations ( first one would steal and quickly swallow the fishermen’s bait on the pier!) I grew up with a lovely lab - but my next dog will be my fourth Springer. Lots of good info from pp - I really sincerely hope you can reach the point where he is a pleasure not a pain

Slip lead walking worked for my cocker spaniel, but I think you've discounted that? Anyway, it probably was uncomfortable for him the first few minutes or so, but he soon realised that walking to heel could solve that and he walks well now. I personally feel that this is acceptable - he would be constantly putting himself at risk by straining hard on a lead ...if I lost my grip and he ran out in front of a car, well, that would be the greater harm than a short period of discomfort. But - I could also see it worked very quickly for him; I would not have persisted if he was still pulling and choking himself. The loop has to sit pretty high on the neck, just under ears to be most effective.

To tire him out I used a combination of frisbee throwing and scentwork. So I would start by throwing the frisbee for him to catch and during the time he was distracted by chasing that I would throw the gundog training dummy far into the undergrowth in the opposite direction so that he wouldn't see where it landed. Then he would hand me back the frisbee and I would send him off to find the dummy using scentwork. He would find the dummy, bring it back to me, then I would throw the frisbee for him and repeat the process again. In this way I was able to physically tire him out during the frisbee catching and mentally work him during the dummy scentwork.

Maybe worth a shot? My boy is 5 now and has definitely calmed down a lot from the age of 4! Only another couple of years!

The walks with my WCS are not the relaxing strolls like most people get and never will be. To stop the running off and hunting on his own I HAVE to constantly engage him. That involves him wondering when I will next throw his ball for him to chase or catch or hunt. Often I throw badly and we spend the next 5 minutes with him and me trying to find it in the undergrowth which is shattering for him as he is 'working' to find his precious ball.

Agree with what previous posters have said. I also wonder whether walking with another dog might help? Either an older calmer dog or preferably a youthful but well trained dog that will run around but always recall well?

My dog loves walking with other dogs and actually loves pottering, running around, following and watching them. If the other dog is well behaved it actually makes for a very stress free walk as my dog tends to mostly do / follow what the other dog is doing as she loves having a buddy so much.

I'd definitely leave the on lead / street walks for now and focus on 'fun' walks where he can just be himself. It might not work for you but might be worth a try.

Sorry another thought, has anyone mentioned finding water? My dog loves water and retrieving a stick / balls etc. Swimming totally tires her out and is a different activity that tires their mind. I would have thought a springer would love it - no time for going crazy as they are in and out of the water.

Our working springer strain needed a big run in the park off the lead (around a racecourse, so a massive park) or a countryside walk daily. Walking on the lead was then easier. Yours sounds as though all that energy is still pent up. She only settled down around the age of 12!

Will your dog play hide and seek with you? Starting in the house and garden and then the park? If I disappear my wcs comes looking for me at a run - if he’s been ignoring recall commands we hide from him and he comes running and then keeps a close eye on us after that and recalls well. All just tricks to play outside and keep his attention on you. Also, what else can he learn? Does he do touch/up (jump on a log etc)/long stay/find the ball in long grass/bushes?

Oh, and mine would strangle himself rather than calm down walking on lead somewhere exciting - he can walk on lead beautifully in the local park or on streets, but get within 50 yards of the beach and he just loses his mind and nothing will distract him from hauling. Same getting out of the car at the country park etc.

@suggestionsplease1 he loves retrieving and hunting out tennis balls/dummies so I'll give that combo a go!

I think he could need to tire himself out more through physical exercise, but as I mentioned before, at a certain threshold he just flips over into losing control, which is stressful for us all... I'm going to book a slot at our local enclosed field for a couple days next week to let him burn off some steam and let us all calm down a bit. I should say that we also do a lot of brain games at home, so I feel confident he's tired out by these as well - I think this is partly why is so relaxed at home.

He's not really that interested in other dogs - with some that are on the same level as him energy-wise he'll have a brief game of chase, but otherwise he's much more interested in sprinting around like a loon and just ignores them.

He's also very un-Springer like in that he's really not keen on water! We had booked a slot at a dog pool before Christmas to try and get him interested, but obviously that had to be cancelled. A good reminder to get this arranged post-lockdown though, so thank you.

He will definitely do paws up on a log or similar, but once we get to a few seconds he starts whining and just loses interest in us/the game and wants to be back engaging with the environment. I know the answer is to take this back to basics at home, but we're struggling to build duration in any activities that involve stillness without him getting whiny/frustrated/bored - does anyone have any tips on how to do this?

Thank you all for your tips, it's really appreciated!

we're struggling to build duration in any activities that involve stillness without him getting whiny/frustrated/bored - does anyone have any tips on how to do this?

Two:

• work up in micro increments; have a look at the '100 peck' method which although does not have to be followed religiously shows the very basics of building duration in a measurable way

• include other tasks; e.g. jump on log, sit, stand on log, touch hand to paw, jump down, walk along log.

Overall, remember to keep it all fun. It's all a game. If he doesn't like staying still games, then only include them as fragments of a bigger, moving about game - iyswim?

Hide and seek is also a good suggestion by pp - one person holds the dog, the other hides and the dog is sent to find them. It takes what the dog WANTS to do (seek among the landscape at pace) and turns it into a focussed activity.

Start in the field before moving out into the the 'real' world. Perhaps with the beloved ball with the hidden person as the reward.

we're struggling to build duration in any activities that involve stillness without him getting whiny/frustrated/bored - does anyone have any tips on how to do this?

Include them as part of a bigger picture. So don't just spend ages teaching him something that requires stillness - switch it up. So get him to hold a pose, then ask him to do other things that require movement (hunting a ball out, for example, or going over a log or under a branch) then go back to it afterwards.

Lots of dogs whine when they don't understand what's being asked of them as well, so make sure you're as clear as clear can be.

I thought of one other thing - what food is he on?

I had my eldest cocker on a working dog food that was high protein and OMG he was literally bouncing off the walls on it. Took me far too long to work out why.......... I've got them now on Skinners sweet potato and chicken - it's less protein and equal carbs I think and has made a massive difference. Some dogs really don't suit the higher protein stuff.

I'd also look at neutering if you haven't already done so. My boy is still entire as he's never shown any sign of sexual behaviour but in hindsight, it's added to his energy levels and I wish I'd had him done years ago.

I know you said you've tried gundog trainers but a behaviourist may give you a better insight, especially into the calming down. I tried gundog classes with mine and found it too rigid/forceful. We found a local Puppy school (the Gwen Bailey franchise one www.puppyschool.co.uk/about-us ) and their help was amazing with our sprocker. They help with all dogs, not just puppies.

We've a sprocker. The walking to heel was driving me mad but someone on here recommended a figure of 8 lead and it's made a huge difference, it made a difference in such a short time too.

Like your dog he the prey drive is strong and I was distraught a few months ago when he caught a rabbit.

We did loads of recall work and he is so much better now thankfully!

With the whining and restlessness there are a few commands that you can try. So my dog knows 'quiet', 'look at me' and 'relax'. Like a lot of commands the 'quiet' one is trained best as a pair - so teach your dog to 'speak' - bark or 'sing' howl and then when they stop immediately praise them / treat them for being 'quiet', using the word a lot to reinforce the command 'good boy for being quiet!' (my dog works better with hand signals so my command is finger over my lips so that he knows I want him to stop making a noise.)

'Look at me' is another good one for them to focus on you when you're out and about, where they hold eye contact with you until you give them another instruction. You can build up to longer periods, even getting them to look for a second or two to start off with so they know what's expected of them. The usual reward based training or whatever works for you dog, for some praise is sufficient.

Well, I had to double-check I hadn’t written this post myself as our situation is eerily similar! Also have a working bred springer, almost 2 years old, with exactly the same challenges as you

I think my main issues are that I can’t give her off-lead freedom other than in secure fields, because I’ve lost confidence (recall went to pot in the ‘teenage’ years as predicted but then lockdown happened and all the training and socialisation opportunities dried up so I’ve had a lack of in-person guidance to fix this) and these fields aren’t available as often as I’d ideally need to go. Secondly, I try so many different training techniques, lead and harness combinations, but she seems to resist all of them and I don’t persevere with any particular method long enough to see results I guess.

Anyway, feel free to PM me if you’d like a virtual springer training partner and we can share the highs and lows together!

@SirSniffsAlot thank you, that method looks like it will be very helpful!

@missbridgerton he's on Millie's Wolfheart Gundog mix, which is 50/50 - I had thought this level would be ok, but perhaps the protein is too high? Interesting about neutering as well - the only reason he's not done yet is we're waiting for him to turn two (in a couple of months), but lots of people have said it will make no difference to him.

@twomoreminutes - although I really sympathise and understand how hard it is, I am pleased to hear from someone else going the same struggles! I feel we've been impacted by lockdown with ours too, even though he wasn't a small puppy when it all started. I'll PM you

@madspringer please do! Our springers sound amazingly alike, even down to making noise and not been overly keen on water!