Considering getting a pug puppy - any advice?

[OldEvilOwl]

Hi we are looking at getting a puppy in the next few months. We had our 15year old JRT put to sleep before Xmas, and my first dog was also a JRT. As children we had border terriers & labradors. I would love a pug, but understand they can have health issues from the way they are bred. Does anyone have much experience of them?

I met someone with a jug recently - so looked like a pug, but with a cute JRT nose! No breathing issues, and a really lovely little dog. Find a cross breed with pug in - first generation usually have the hybrid vigor that you get when making the breeding pool bigger.

@emotionalpuddle
@PugInTheHouse

You may be interested in this article:

The most common owner-reported disorders in their dogs were allergies, corneal ulcers, skin fold infections and Brachycephalic Obstructive Airway Syndrome (BOAS). One-fifth (19.9%) of owners reported that their dog had undergone at least one conformation-related surgery, 36.5% of dogs were reported with a problem with heat regulation, and 17.9% with problems breathing. Despite awareness of their dog’s health issues, 70.9% owners considered their dog to be in very good health or the best health possible.

Ownership of brachycephalic dog breeds is a complex phenomenon, characterised by extremely strong dog-owner relationships and unrealistic perceptions of good health set against high levels of disease in relatively young dogs. Perceptual errors in owner beliefs appear to exist between brachycephalic owner perspectives of their own dog’s health versus the health of the rest of their breed, which may be fuelled by cognitive dissonance processes.

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0219918

Coffee - no vet knows everything about every dog, I am not denying they are likely to know the generalised potential issues with a breed though. Re the overweight pugs, all bar one pugs I know are healthy weights and love long walks. In my experience the reason they are overweight is not because they can't exercise, it's because they are overfed and not exercised. They will be exceptions of course. In this instance this is my experience/opinion NOT scientific findings, just to be clear.

Anyway, I dont think this conversation is useful TBH. It is hijacking the OPs thread and there is plenty of info for her to read through without us arguing over it all.

Corgi

@QueenOfLabradors

Avoid the poodle crosses, you're almost as likely to end up with an unhealthy mess of a dog as you would with a brachycephalic breed, and for the same reason - they are far too fashionable for their own good and thus the market is flooded with opportunistic dodgy breeders and importers. I love Labradors, as you might have already guessed from my nn ! If you're used to JRTs why not look into one of them again? Usually pretty healthy.

Why QueenofLabradors? I have a 9 year old Jackapoo (thought I was getting a JRT but the poodle got there first) and she is great - people regularly mistake her for a puppy as she is so active and healthy, but has been easy to train and is very loving. What kind of health issues have you seen in the poodle crosses? I do know that there is a big difference between F1 and F2 crosses.

@PugInTheHouse

Coffee - no vet knows everything about every dog, I am not denying they are likely to know the generalised potential issues with a breed though. Re the overweight pugs, all bar one pugs I know are healthy weights and love long walks. In my experience the reason they are overweight is not because they can't exercise, it's because they are overfed and not exercised. They will be exceptions of course. In this instance this is my experience/opinion NOT scientific findings, just to be clear.

Anyway, I dont think this conversation is useful TBH. It is hijacking the OPs thread and there is plenty of info for her to read through without us arguing over it all.

No one has suggested that any vet knows everything about any dog except you. You're arguing with your own point to avoid actually answering any of my questions or engaging meaningfully in providing your 'research'

The Dutch have the right idea, ban the breeding of pugs entirely and let the breed die out.

@TakingTheLowRoad

Another vote for a Parson Russell Terrier. Lively dogs, full of fun but also happy to sit on your knee watch telly. Ours has totally transformed our family 😊

Gorgeous @TakingTheLowRoad - they're lovely wee dogs aren't they?

I’ve had two Cairns- wonderful affection feisty dogs - but I saw a Westie for sale on champdogs for £3500 recently, so watch out for price.

I have seen some Jack Russell-type dogs with longer coats called Podencos (sp?) if that helps your research.

Veterinari- thank you very much for that article. It explained a lot of things for me and is all information I wish I’d known before we got a pug. Who incidentally seemed perfectly healthy until she was six months old and it was downhill all the way from there. I certainly never thought I would be having a dog sleep propped up on my arm every night and continually readjusting her because of her sleep apnea. I didn’t envisage being awake at night in the summer frantically trying to cool down a dog who was too hot to breathe. Or the fact that I’m having to fill my house with stair gates and ramps because pugs shouldn’t jump or climb stairs (again not something I knew).
Two thirds of all pugs have breathing problems which require surgery (and only half of those pugs will get that surgery, often the owners think the noises are just normal pug sounds). So I guess people can get lucky and get one without issues. It’s a big gamble though.
I’m glad the op has been put off. I spend a lot of time telling people I meet who admire my pug, not to buy one.

I have a pug x chihuahua- looks like a pug but with a proper nose, she has a fantastic pug temperament and no health issues. I had no intention of going for the pug breed with all the breathing and health issues and the flat face look is disgusting! I’m sure whichever breed you eventually decide on will be perfect for you- some great choices from pp

@honeyandbutterontoast

Veterinari- thank you very much for that article. It explained a lot of things for me and is all information I wish I’d known before we got a pug. Who incidentally seemed perfectly healthy until she was six months old and it was downhill all the way from there. I certainly never thought I would be having a dog sleep propped up on my arm every night and continually readjusting her because of her sleep apnea. I didn’t envisage being awake at night in the summer frantically trying to cool down a dog who was too hot to breathe. Or the fact that I’m having to fill my house with stair gates and ramps because pugs shouldn’t jump or climb stairs (again not something I knew). Two thirds of all pugs have breathing problems which require surgery (and only half of those pugs will get that surgery, often the owners think the noises are just normal pug sounds). So I guess people can get lucky and get one without issues. It’s a big gamble though. I’m glad the op has been put off. I spend a lot of time telling people I meet who admire my pug, not to buy one.

Thank you for your honesty, even though it's tough to read.

I think the obstructive sleep apnoea in pugs is one of the most cruel aspects of their conformation. The literature in children shows it's an awful experience

If this thread discourages even one person from financially supporting the breeding of these animals by buying a brachycephalic then that's a good thing

I’m so pleased you no longer want a pug OP, people buy pug pups (and other breeds such as bulldogs, persian cats, scottish folds etc) are the ones responsible for animals suffering as they are fueling the demand for unwell animals.

When you eventually get your new pup we need pictures. A JRT was on our breed shortlist, they’re great little dogs.

I'm going to ignore all the pug advocates as I see OP has taken the matter on board. I too know a couple of Jugs and while they look adorable and far more sensibly proportioned, I won't recommend as I know nothing about whether they still have health issues, I imagine as with many cross breeds that it's pot luck especially with 1st generations. OP if you're familiar with JRT's I'd stick with that. I have my first - she's nearly a year old and absolutely the most fun dog I've ever owned. Cairn and border terriers are lovely but my friend has been after a border for over a year and is yet to find a breeder. She's made it to the waiting list of one but with no puppies on the horizon due to covid. Patterdales are nice too, however Jack Russell's being as popular as they are means that there is plenty choice so you can do your homework and find a reputable breeder, the gene pool is vast so far less issues than many dogs.

Here's a pic of mine to remind you of just how adorable they are

Why QueenofLabradors? I have a 9 year old Jackapoo (thought I was getting a JRT but the poodle got there first) and she is great - people regularly mistake her for a puppy as she is so active and healthy, but has been easy to train and is very loving. What kind of health issues have you seen in the poodle crosses? I do know that there is a big difference between F1 and F2 crosses

She says why . Because crosses are fashionable, bred in large numbers for profit, so are nearly always farmed or backyard breeders.

This means that they will not be health tested or genetic tested. They will still be at risk of the genetic conditions found in parent breeds.

Plus they aren’t bred in the healthiest of environments, and sadly it isn’t unusual to get one of these puppies home for it to die of worm burden, diarrhoea, or some other disease.

Obviously it isn’t always the case, before people jump on and say “but I have a cross and it’s healthy”. People are saying that about Pugs! But for a start why risk it, and second do you really want to be supporting this type of breeder?

Puppies and dogs are big money these days. It’s led to a massive rise in crime and a decrease in welfare. These breeders know once someone gets a sick puppy home they get attached and won’t return it.

Get a pug cross

Pugs are soooo cute and funny, you’ll spend a lot of time laughing

I'd vote for Jack Russel too! Smart, active, affectionate, low maintenance and cute.

Why QueenofLabradors? I have a 9 year old Jackapoo (thought I was getting a JRT but the poodle got there first) and she is great - people regularly mistake her for a puppy as she is so active and healthy, but has been easy to train and is very loving. What kind of health issues have you seen in the poodle crosses? I do know that there is a big difference between F1 and F2 crosses

Gosh poor JRT bitch. Unless that was the smallest of mini poodle dogs and a small litter that was very unfair and negligent.

Pugs are soooo cute and funny, you’ll spend a lot of time laughing

Sooo funny not being able to breathe and permanently in pain or discomfort.

Everyone I know with a pug regrets it. I spoke to someone recently who has spent obscene amounts of money just keeping it reasonably well. Several grand for an operation to help it breathe to start. Then it’s £120 a month insurance, plus many of it’s issues aren’t covered as they’re pre-existing.

All you need to do is google a pug skull. It’s horrific.

Yes re insurance too- my JRT is £13 pm and that's with zero excess and a great level of cover.

I had a pug. He never had any of the health issues that people go on about ( usually by none pug owners). My pug lived until he was 13. My advice is to wait and find a KC registered breeder. A lot of pugs now you see don't look like pugs as they are back street breeders.

I had a pug. He never had any of the health issues that people go on about ( usually by none pug owners)
I often feel this way about my breed.
People who’ve never had one saying they aren’t pets, bad family dogs etc.
But I notice my breed doesn’t have the BVA worried about their health...
My breed doesn’t struggle to breathe, or snore (caused by struggling to breathe)

lot of pugs now you see don't look like pugs as they are back street breeders
That’s no bad thing when the ‘properly Bred’ equivalent suffers with so many very serious afflictions that have a big negative impact on welfare

From the BVA:

“Vets tell us that the majority of people who own brachycephalic dogs aren't able to recognise their pet's breed-related health issues”

@WannabemoreWeaver @bluebluezoo has written it for me! By 'poo' crosses I mean the commercially bred ones. The health issues I've seen are mostly joint problems due to lack of hip-scoring and similar in the gundog side of the parents and skin problems, usually because the poodly coat tends to get filthy in anything except drought conditions and is very difficult to keep groomed.

Your accidental cross sounds like a lovely boy.